MMSC has had live timing at most of our events this year. Connect to the wireless hotspot and you can view times from your device. Been thinking about having a large screen at Slemon next year.

The times are the only thing that need to be PAX'd at the event. You can look at your pax time compared to others and decide who you want to compare yourself to. Class groupings and Points don't need to be decided until later. For example, we didn't see any ASCC points until last week or so. And frankly, we don't need to before then. Our wonderful timing and scoring volunteers are worked hard enough as is.

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2009 Civic Hybrid. 1997 BMW 328iS
evanwritescars.com

I only compare my times to FTD. If I manage to get FTD, then I've won my class as well.

Classes are pretty much useless in our region. We don't have enough competitors to fill most classes, so class wins are empty. But then if you amalgamate classes, the cars from the higher class within that group will always have a big advantage, so again an empty win. Might as well just give it your all and see where you end up overall.

PAX is a whole other can of worms. PAX factors are calculated using a HUGE data sampling based on vehicles which are prepared to the absolute limit of the rules and driven by drivers who can extract every millisecond of performance out of them. These data samplings are usually from national caliber events where the courses are much longer & faster than what we typically run here in our region. While PAX is great in theory, I don't feel it truly rewards the best driver of an event. Maybe if we all ran national-caliber courses and had cars prepped to the limits, but that's not the case.

Then again, what do I care. I'm only looking at FTD.

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1997 Talon TSi AWD
2008 EVO X MR

At Ft Devens STX was in second gear for almost the entire course, with times comparable to Slemon. That is an SCCA National Tour event. Look at YouTube you will see many courses comparable in length and speed to Magic Mountain.


You have to admit PAX should be more even than being forced to bump classes in order to compete for full class points.

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Charles

Getting FTD will always feel nice, irrespective of whatever scoring system is in use at the time
Hell, I pat myself on the back and award myself "Street legal FTD" when I beat everyone but the Locost. It's entirely made-up and it still feels good


Yes, I agree with Charles. PAX may not be perfect, but it is much more fair and levels the playing field much better than bumping

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Money ---> Heat and Noise

MMSC #12/ASP

I agree with mike on his miata and viper comment, that's why I'm happy with any resolution as long as we don't strictly use pax to determine who's in what place. If that's the case, calculate a pax number for a golf cart and that's what I'll be running next year.

This only works if your car is built to the limit of the class rules, which frankly mine isn't and won't ever be since I like to drive it on the street. I doubt a lot of the other SP cars are. PAX factors are based on the peak prep levels for the class, which can run into the 10s of thousands even for SP cars. So either I remove some mods that really make the car drive better everywhere (not just slalom!), or live with being PAXed out of competing. And anyone with a JDM motor swap might as well not show up unless they've got the money to throw around for an SM car. The SCCA ruleset is annoyingly arbitrary depending on what car you happen to own.



Or Scott said it more succinctly than I can.

It just seems like trading one set of problems for another. I like the idea of PAXing similar prep levels of cars - there are enough entries that it can work on a club and regional level, and a lot of the inter-class competition is along those lines anyway. You still cut the # of trophies by a lot. Stock, ST, SP, SM, MOD, and PREP makes for what, 15 total? Then another 3 for overall. Maybe combine stuff if the entries don't support it, ie combine prep/mod and SP/SM. But PAXing everyone together isn't really something I'd go for.

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'99 BMW M3 / "Elvic"

It would be 0.804 That's what I drive.

In all seriousness, it would probably be in some sort of MOD class and have a really high number.

Go through the rules yourself and make sure you are in the proper class. Sometimes asking people doesn't get you the right answer. It's a complicated book.

Scott, the ASCC event where you had FTD, you still had FTD after PAX IIRC. BSP actually has a lower # than SM (0.858 vs 0.867).Some day this week, I'll take all of the ASCC events, break it down into the 3 classes as described and figure out the points that way. I do know that if we did it this way I'd run STF on all of the rainy/lazy days when I don't want to change tires.

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2009 Civic Hybrid. 1997 BMW 328iS
evanwritescars.com

Just to make sure we're all on the same page here.... For example, My understanding is that the ST cars will be grouped together to determine the winner for street touring, but each individual group within ST will still use its respectable pax factor. That way I (STX) would be on the same page as a S2000 in STR. Currently it is not really fair, given that MMSC will pick the fastest time in ST, regardless of class. (correct me if I'm wrong)

SP and SM would be on an even page with pax (Hypothetically) because the SP cars raw times would be run through a smaller multiplier.

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#20 Scion FR-S 6MT Powered by:
Great North Performance, Morine's Towing Performance & Off Road, Jani-King Canada and Blue Buzzard Performance Parts.

2013+14+15 Atlantic Sports Car Club Overall Autocross Champion
2013+14+15 Atlantic Region Motor Sports Overall Autocross Champion
2017-18 BAC Overall Rallycross Champion

Not sure if we're on the same page
It would work like this:

There are many competitors at this fictional event, however there are only 2 people in ST today, you and Ray.

Your best time (in STX) is 58.345 seconds.
Ray's best time (in STR) is 58.152 seconds.

Your PAX score is 0.827 x 58.345 = 48.251315
Ray's PAX score is 0.839 x 58.152 = 48.789528

At the ST Prep level, you would receive 17 points and Ray would receive 14 points.

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Money ---> Heat and Noise

MMSC #12/ASP

A few people have mentioned "number of trophies" and "saving the club money". I don't think that's the core issue here. The trophies are likely only a few dollars each. The real issue is that competitors want to feel a sense of accomplishment from winning, which doesn't happen when you win by default.

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1997 Talon TSi AWD
2008 EVO X MR

I didn't see this before






It might be easier to drive fast in a Miata than in a Viper - but PAX is based on the driving performance of guys who know how to be really fast, and if it's so hard to be fast in a Viper, than that will be reflected in PAX as well.

One thing to realise is the PAX numbers are based on some of the most competive and skilled drivers in North America, and if they think there is a class with easy competition (a "soft pax") they will show up in the right car to take advantage of that. That is the correction mechanism - super competitive drivers who will change from a 911 to a Fit if that means a better shot at a trophy or winners jacket.


Here is something I really like about Mike's proposal vs straight PAX:
Classes with different allowable mods will be affected more or less depending on things like weather. For example - SP cars are allowed R compound tires, but this way they are not compared to ST cars on real road tires when the weather is cold & standing water.


As for new drivers with existing mods that give them a difficult PAX, realistically a new autocrosser is always going to be at a disadvantage compared to any driver with a few events under their belt, let alone against the type of drivers who usually win in full competitive classes. This proposal won't help them, but it shouldn't hurt them either.

Dev - you are correct about the proposal.

However - on your comment about current MMSC practice - it's actually unfair to STR, not to STX: STX has a PAX of 0.827 and STR has a PAX of 0.839 - so STR has to have a lower raw time in order to beat STX on PAX!

Scott - I doubt many local SP cars are built to the limit, and if you want a streetable car you will always be at a disadvantage to anyone who builds a maximum prep SP or SM car. That has always been the case under any set of rules. But SM & SP aren't being grouped with the more streetable classes like Stock or with Street Touring, so you just have to decide how far you need/want to go to compete with others under the same allowances.

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Charles

Exactly.

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Charles

I have no idea where this comes from. MMSC club championships for 2013 is calculated the same way as the regional championships. While I like the propose Mike has put forward, what MMSC does for 2014 has to be decided at the club's competition meeting and AGM. What MMSC does for it's club championship has no bearing on other clubs in the region, however I would like both MMSC and region adopt the same point structure, but that's not my decision to make.

No no, what I was saying is that for a ST win, MMSC uses raw times to determine Street touring winner (as per my understanding, but as I said I might be wrong here) I'm not talking for regional points.

I can't really see why you would say that it is unfair either way after pax. Cars that SHOULD be faster are multiplied by a higher decimal multiplier.

Of course STR cars should have a lower raw time to beat a STX car.

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#20 Scion FR-S 6MT Powered by:
Great North Performance, Morine's Towing Performance & Off Road, Jani-King Canada and Blue Buzzard Performance Parts.

2013+14+15 Atlantic Sports Car Club Overall Autocross Champion
2013+14+15 Atlantic Region Motor Sports Overall Autocross Champion
2017-18 BAC Overall Rallycross Champion

MMSC currently scores individual events just like ASCC. No comparing cars in different classes unless they bump into the same.class

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Money ---> Heat and Noise

MMSC #12/ASP

The only club in the region that does their club points differently that I know of is FMC.

I'm not complaining about this - in fact I like that proposal, which is what mike originally put forth. Looking at the PAX differentials it probably wouldn't be that bad to have SM grouped with the SP classes, although those in SSM might not like that

Going back I realize I was probably arguing with no one, but I don't want to see full on SCCA style PAX where everyone is compared to each other regardless of prep level. Realistically local competitors in SP/SM/MOD/PREP aren't going to be near the PAX potential of someone running rcomps + a swaybar in stock class, so it doesn't make sense to pit them directly against each other using PAX.

This is the good part about Mike's proposal - it keeps a lot of the current SP/SM competition alive, but also helps get some competition going in Stock and ST.

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'99 BMW M3 / "Elvic"

It took me a few posts to say a whole lot of nothing but well said Scott, that's what I was getting at.

I don't believe that to be the case.... I think PAX reflects those pros performing at the top of their game, but I don't think it takes into account how difficult (and likely or unlikely) it would be for an amateur to perform similarly

That said, it's not really relevant to the discussion at the moment

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Money ---> Heat and Noise

MMSC #12/ASP

If I look at my car and what I'd like to change on it from purely competitive standpoint, I'm screwed either way:
> if I don't do anything and stay in stock group next year, I get hammered by George
> if I go to a square wheel/tire setup and perhaps refresh the suspension, I move to STU and get hammered by Devon

So, the real question is, which group will provide more fun.


P.S. If it provides more interest and competitive spirit, I'm more than willing to "work" the timing/scoring and calculate/write down the PAX times on the fly instead of working a cone station. If someone else wants to do that during my runs, we can have a PAX table in real-time.

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Moving backwards... FWD to RWD, that is.

George can't go back to stock without a lot of work. He runs STF and FSP.

Everybody should also remember no more super sticky competition only tires in stock next year (sub 140 treadwear, then 200 year after) if we are following that change, which evens things up as far as prep levels, and should change the pax values. Although I think I'm the only one using them in stock in ASCC anyway.

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2009 Civic Hybrid. 1997 BMW 328iS
evanwritescars.com

Ah, great! So, what you're saying is that I should stay away from ST group.

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Moving backwards... FWD to RWD, that is.

That may not be the core issue, but trophies for AutoSlalom cost well over $1000 per year.

There isn't going to be any rule or system that will make everyone happy, but I see a lot of brainstorming going on here which is great. Someone needs to write up a proposal and garner support to have it voted in at either their clubs or the regions AGM this year.



A long time ago when I first started in autoslalom I went to my first AGM and someone purposed this one class system, I think almost half heartedly as a joke. I decided to second the motion, at the time just because I felt bad for the poor guy purposing it. Needless to say it was quickly outvoted. However after giving it some thought I really do like the system. From a logistics point of view the one class (FTD System) is the simplest. No classes, no pax, less trophies, etc etc.
Do I ever think it will be put in place, no.
Do I think it's the best option for the region, probably not.

But lets face it when we drive our cars we know who typically places around us and we battle with them.
Joel & Trevor are a great example, yes they are currently in the same class, but I think both drivers would still take great enjoyment in comparing each others times, even if they were in different classes (please correct me if I'm wrong Joel & Trevor).

I don't know what the key is to grow this sport, I only know why I keep coming back, and that's the adrenaline rush.

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"The future is already here — it's just not very evenly distributed."-William Gibson
1989 Van Diemen - Formula 2000 Continental

I'm going to make a formal proposal to MMSC when the time comes
If that's accepted (with or without changes), than I'll propose our new system to ARMS afterwards

This is assuming that the MMSC meeting happens first, which I believe to be the case
I'm not sure how ASCC would fit in the timeline since I'm not a member

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Money ---> Heat and Noise

MMSC #12/ASP

Just a few comments from someone who was new to the sport at the beginning of the year. First off, I really like the original proposal. As Scott said, the current system makes it much to easy to come away with a trophy without really accomplishing anything. As far as I'm aware, there are only three of us competing in BSP this year. That means that I, despite only showing up for maybe half of the events this year and regularly placing near the bottom, am on track to win a trophy in that class. I certainly don't deserve one, and I feel like it devalues the trophies for whoever finishes first and second, since all they had to do to get there was go faster than me. I think a prep level system would be a big improvement, and give those who still manage to trophy a lot bigger feeling of accomplishment.

This is slightly off topic, but the effects on new competitors have been discussed here a few times, so I'll bring it up anyway. I think that the best way to encourage new people to come out, and to keep coming out, would be to add a "Street Tire" or "Daily Driver" class. This would be open to any car, with any modifications, as long as they were running a regular street tire (i.e. anything with a treadwear rating of 240 and above, perhaps, to exclude the very sticky RS3's, Rivals, etc.)

Now, I know this could create a class with a huge variance in performance level; a lightly modded miata, for examle, is obviously not going to be able to compete with a GTR, regardless of what tires they're on. In our region, however, I don't think this is a huge concern. Personally, this is effectively what I do now; at each event, I look around at who is running regular street tires, and compare my times to theirs. Regardless of whether they have an FRS, a Mustang, or a Corvette, my times are generally much closer to each of them then they are to the other competitors in my own class running R-Comps. Additionally, since this class would not be a real, sanctioned one, the motivation to go crazy with prep just to win it would be pretty low.

Basically, the idea here would be to give people with cars that aren't classed competitively, for whatever reason, a somewhat competitive class to compete in. Personally, I like autoslalom specifically because I can show up in my daily driver, and compete with no additional prep and at very low cost. This means that I'm not willing to spend the extra time and money on Rcomps and prepping my car to fit a certain class (which isn't particularly easy to do with an M3 that sees both street and track time). Right now though, the competition factor really isn't there; I think the class I suggested above wold add a great amount of enjoyment for guys like me, and maybe convince us to get involved on a more serious level.

i still would enjoy competing with cars in different classes and comparing times. But i also enjoy the SM Competition, Mostly because it is usually a full class at every event.

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2001 Bullitt......Not Mine, I Just drive it
2012 ARMS Regional Autoslalom 1st Place Overall
2012 1st SM ARMS
2012 ASCC Autoslalom 1st Place Overall
2012 1st SM ASCC
2009 ARMS AutoSlalom Top Novice
2009 1st ESP

I think that having a separate leaderboard based on pure PAX and another for pure RAW times would actually be cool and interesting
It would be easy for someone to take the event data after each event was finished and assign points and post it
It would neither add to or detract from what we're currently discussing though, which is the grouping of the current classes into prep levels

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Money ---> Heat and Noise

MMSC #12/ASP

The best ever autoslalom season for me was when many of us were running C Super Stock. I wasn't fully prepared for the class (I doubt any of us were) but having four or five (or more) drivers who could win the class any particular weekend was awesome.

I think the best solution is to require everyone to drive a lightly modified Miata

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Charles

Jordan, I totally agree, but I believe if you read the original idea behind the ST_lmnop classes, that was pretty much the description. Giving regular enthusiast cars on street tires a place to play. But, as with many things, people figured out a way to game the system ("cheater" street tires for example) and it became just another class.

Interesting discussion you guys are having though. I've been following it a bit as a former slalomer (to invent a word) who's been toying with the idea of getting back into it. Will be interesting to see what you land on.

..and not that it was central to this, but since Jason mentioned the cost (and I have no idea how this would be practical unless everybody was on board) but, could you just have an option for people to opt out of receiving a physical trophy? Kind of like how the bank lets you opt out of receiving paper correspondence or a hotel lets you opt out of getting fresh towels? It could even be considered an environmental thing, despite the obvious irony for a motorsports trophy. I know any trophies I've ever won (mostly car audio stuff back in my younger days) are just in boxes cluttering up my garage loft. I can't imagine a lot of people are in it for the trophies, but maybe I'm wrong. Some poeple live for that stuff. If I wanted trophies, for the amount of money I have into my cars, I could build a trophy room on my house and fill it my self.