This is what is being suggested at the club level of MMSC. It might be worth considering at both the club and regional levels
CASC-OR is using this format this year.

There are 2 issues that it attempts to address:
1 - There are too many trophies (~40 classes x 3 trophies per class = everyone that attends receives a class trophy). We're all a bit old for participation trophies, so we can save the clubs money and reduce the awards to a more relevant number
2 - Competitors that compete in some slower classes cannot compete in the overall points standings, no matter how well the perform, due to their car's performance limitations. If you're alone in HS and need to bump up to SM (or similar) to get a full class, you're simply not going to score well, even if you're a fantastic driver.





What do people think? Suggestions?

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Money ---> Heat and Noise

MMSC #12/ASP

Sounds like a great idea! Seems like every year someone that shows up for one event gets a trophy because he/she was the only one in that class.

Would bumping still be allowed? This would certainly make SM interesting at regional's.

That makes sense to me and I like it! Keeps it simple and fun.

Disclaimer: I never had a car/skill to challenge for any championships, so my opinion is that of a club member looking for some fun factor.

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Moving backwards... FWD to RWD, that is.

Ok, I see now sp and sm are together.

The only problem with that is the car's that are supposed to be in SP that are in SM now could drop down for a better pax factor.

Ex: Joel FSP, who consistently gets ftd is .838 and me in SM because of an engine swap is at .867.

I would have to get a lot faster...

I like the idea. I hate being alone in my class, or occasionally a second car, but wouldn't be competitive in another class without extensive mods. Which I don't want to do.
For kicks and giggles, this would be the ASCC standings (7 of 8 events, worst dropped) using a PAX overall system. Top 20. Note that this does give some advantage to people who only made 1 or 2 events but did really well at that event. Breaking down by prep level would probably fix much of that.

Also, keep in mind that my math was done on lunch, wasn't really checked, and is in no way as precise and accurate as our usual and excellent scoring provider.
Your mileage may vary.

Joel N 95
Devon T 78
George S 72
Ralf G 63
Trevor G 47
Colin W 46
Scott M 42
Dave H 36
Daniel M 35
Luc S 30
Craig E 29
Evan W 29
Ben B 28
JonathanM 26
Paul M 20
Brian P 19
Mike P 18
Lucian J 16
Derrick C 11

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2009 Civic Hybrid. 1997 BMW 328iS
evanwritescars.com

Not a bad idea Mike

Might be a bit of a challenge to implement directly into the timing systems vs straight PAX, but I like it

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Charles

I agree that something has to be done. We have way too many classes. Heck, I ran STU last year for a couple events and I got a trophy because I was the only person in that class. That pax idea sounds alright for the most part. However, coming from a situation where just because I had ancient soggy lowering springs that came with the car, I had to go in a prepared class despite the fact that my car handled like a mini van - I understand what Ben is saying. It's crappy for new members as well... I had a co-worker come out with a 240sx and a motor swap and other than that it was bone stock with street tires. He had to compete in the SM class. I know it's probably impossible to come up with a better and more fair way of doing it then by just using pax. I'm just saying it sucks for people that do something to their car before the thought of competing crosses their minds then they wind up against some seasoned drivers with no extra money to prepare the car for that class or set the car back to stock.

I see that as the only issue, personally
During/immediately after an event you couldn't necessarily tell who won each prep-level just by looking at the scoreboard
Someone would need 5 minutes with a spreadsheet or calculator for the competitors to know how well they placed and how many points they earned

I don't know if the scoring system can easily produce those results on the fly... although I imagine it's possible to set up for someone with the appropriate talent/time

After a few events, the "regulars" would probably know "on a 60 sec course I need to beat Tyson by 1.5 seconds to be ahead" or whatever



I don't think that's a problem, I think it's fair
I was assuming Joel had mods that pushed him up to SM. If not, that's really impressive that he does so well with an FSP-legal car. Doesn't he have the interior stripped? Or am I thinking of another car? Anywho, if he can get FTD in an FSP car than he deserves to win every event that he enters



It's impossible to compensate for every person that does random modifications to their car. An engine swap really can't be overlooked when classing - it could be debatable if it were more minor like a CF hood or something, but the engine is pretty dang important

_________________
Money ---> Heat and Noise

MMSC #12/ASP

I'm not going to vote against it, I think its a great idea. But it will pretty much stop bumping all together, everyone will run the lowest class they can for the pax factor. I guess that's not a bad thing.

Ill have to start looking for a stock motor so I can run dsp.

Haha, that's the crappy part.. People are going to spend money and make their cars slower to be faster. But yeah, it seems like it will work where right now only SM has a good number of competitors. I think a few people were considering just going in SM to have more people in their class.

If they grouped the street mods together there would be a pretty big class.

Trevor
Joel
Alan
Ben
Colin
Mike S
Mike P
Luc S
Taylor
Matt E
Might be SM next year:
Scott M
Jon M
Devon T

I know I'm forgetting some.
If SP was in there it would be at least double. That's crazy!

If it was done I'd like to see SM separate from SP. Not really equivalent levels of prep and we already have lots of interest in SSM/SM, at least in ASCC. There are more than enough people to split stock/ST/SP/SM into separate groups. And I'd probably still run SM next year even if I was SP legal. Except for maybe nationals.

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'99 BMW M3 / "Elvic"

Running SM separate from SP might make sense at the ASCC/Regional level, but probably not for MMSC
We only tend to have 1 or 2 people in SM prior to bumping up to fill classes


Personally I think it would be great to see 10+ competitors in a class/prep level. That would make for some intense competition, and presumably on a fairly level playing field due to the use of PAX factors.
Bumping, although useful with the current setup, objectively puts the people bumping at a disadvantage since, by definition, they're competing in car that is less capable than their competitor's
I assume that the 20/17/14/11/etc/etc/1 system was intended to have the majority of the range used frequently, rather than just the top 3 or 4 numbers

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Money ---> Heat and Noise

MMSC #12/ASP

About Joel's interior being stripped, no it isn't. If it were he wouldn't be allowed in SM, as it states interior must be in. Or else I would be in SM too but I am not making my car slower to make a class. Well, maybe if it wasn't so much work to add it all back in.

Ah I must be thinking of Leon. I haven't seen either car in some time
I still think that he if he can get ftd in an FTP legal car, he should win.

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Money ---> Heat and Noise

MMSC #12/ASP

Mike you beat me to the punch. I was going to bring this up at the AGM and see what people thought. I would class ASCC and MSCC the same way. Then for regional events run all the classes. Everyone would run there class at every event but for club level events they would be combined together to cut cost of trophys. using PAX to make different classes fare. Also i would like to see the overall winner based off PAX not class points. Really all you need to do is win a class. But what if you class hasnt anyone to race against. Maybe a class like FSP.LOL. thats why I run SM. My civic and the grays mustang is a back and forth battle. Now with Ben B in the class its even more fun. But My civic is FSP legal. No matter what george says.

I was also going to bring up a new classing system for time attacks.
FWD street tire
FWD race tire
RWD street tire
RWD race tire
AWD street tire
AWD race tire
Unlimited. Any tire, all None DOT tire cars must have full cage.
Street tires would be 200 and up and race would be 200 and under treadwear. (same as autocross)
But thats a discusion for another day.

Anyway Great idea. Lets do it. Dont mess with it to much. If it has been working for ontario it should work for us. You can leave it as you first stated it. Once the PAX factor has been put in it will make it fair.

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Watch out for porcupine exiting turn 9!!!!!!

AX-1995 Honda Civic CX FSP
RR-1995 Honda DelSol VTEC GT4
2009 Canadian Solosprint Champion.
ARMS Race Director. Race@armsinc.ca

I think there should be only one class... FTD. Fastest time wins!

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1997 Talon TSi AWD
2008 EVO X MR

The one thing I learned at the AGM last year was not to bring something up and expect immediate discussion and resolution
That said, it might be a good idea to pitch using straight PAX to determine overall winner at the regional level and let us experiment with the prep-level trophies at the club level to see how well it works


BTW, George was saying that your car has an engine swap... and a transmission swap... and aftermarket upper and lower control arms... and the unibody is filled with helium...
Honestly I assumed your car had been worked over like Josh's old Civic, but it's pretty impressive if it's fairly stock

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Money ---> Heat and Noise

MMSC #12/ASP

I like the idea of having sm/sp/stock/street tire classes using pax for everything but sm to determine the winners in the other classes but seeing as how it doesn't work for mscc.. That's a bummer.

MMSC and ASCC don't necessarily need to follow the exact same guidelines
ex- ASCC drops the lowest event score(s) and MMSC currently does not

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Money ---> Heat and Noise

MMSC #12/ASP

I agree that the level of prep isn't the same, however I don't think there are as many SM/SSM cars as people think. Looking at the list above: Joel, Colin, Mike P, Luc S are actually SP cars that have bumped up. Could be more, I just know those ones off the top of my head. I think it still makes sense to group SP with the SM cars at the region level. There's a bunch of us that already compete with the guys in SM, so it seems natural to keep them together.

x2!

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"The future is already here — it's just not very evenly distributed."-William Gibson
1989 Van Diemen - Formula 2000 Continental

Being somewhat new to this I think I avoid some of the " regular" trains of thought that some of the members here have. I really like the PAX system, as I understand that a huge amount of time and effort has gone into developing its a accuracy. I don't really care what the top ten fastest cars are, and it really is a deterrent to new people to the sport as they may think "no way I'll ever get up there with MY car". The pax system gives me/them a chance to show off their DRIVING, not their car or what they have done to it. I do understand though that certain platforms have an advantage over others given their classing, but no one can expect the system to be perfect.

For me it has never been a chase to get FTD, i have been trying to get 1st after pax (which I actually just did at ASCC #8)

As for Jon's comment on making your car slower to be faster, that is entirely up to the owner. If they truly want to chase a pax win I am sure they will be more than happy to drop a mod or two to gain an advantage. I have switched my outlook on upgrading my car entirely to be "fast" in autocross. The entire STX setup was engineered to be an affordable classing of car, and I believe it to be successful. If you want to spend a lot of money and go for Raw FTD, that is entirely up to you.

I HIGHLY support Mike's proposal, and it will almost certainly help to grow the sport. 90% of the time when people aren't up for trying it, it is because they think their car is slow so there is no point. With the PAX system that argument is pretty well irrelevant.

Edit: To add to this I think this chase for FTD might be more so of a regional mindset. I frequent many car specific forums and all the Autocross discussion (In the USA primarily) usually revolves around how someone PAX'd, not their FTD placement. This whole mindset where there is one class and FTD wins (which I find funny that the Solosport Director enthusiastically supports) is what keeps this sport unattractive to newcomers.

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#20 Scion FR-S 6MT Powered by:
Great North Performance, Morine's Towing Performance & Off Road, Jani-King Canada and Blue Buzzard Performance Parts.

2013+14+15 Atlantic Sports Car Club Overall Autocross Champion
2013+14+15 Atlantic Region Motor Sports Overall Autocross Champion
2017-18 BAC Overall Rallycross Champion

Well said. I have one of the slowest cars out there, but have finished as high as 3rd with PAX. If I can do that well, it seems pretty fair to me. It's not perfect, as some cars are clearly better for their class than others (ie: Mini Cooper in HS, and others that have been eventually reclassed over the years) but it does emphasize driver (and to some extent tire) over car. Of course, I'm not biased at all Dozens of classes works when you have 200+ entries and 15+ events, but is less than optimal with 10 or fewer events and 15-30 cars. If we ever have that "problem" we might have to switch back, but I'm sure none of us would mind were that the case. If somebody wants to change their prep level to get a better PAX, who cares. They could also just better prepare their car for the class they are in. They still have to drive fast either way.

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2009 Civic Hybrid. 1997 BMW 328iS
evanwritescars.com

Scott, the level of Prep would be removed by the PAX factor. We could break it down to even fewer classes because of the PAX. it will make everything far. This will help you alot. Your fast, your in a SP class, and sp classes PAX better then SM. Now its just a matter of finding out whats cheaper, building up to the class your are in, or building it down to were you want to be. For me ill just start running FSP. Thats were my car is set-up for. And i could still do alot more. Mostly in the motor. Oh and a few people are running 275.35.15 Hoosier A6 tires on EG civics down there.



Mike you had me worried for a second there when you said adjustable upper control arms. I had to look and make sure they were legal in SP classes. They are. but man i started to wonder. The helium was in my tire though. Not my unibody.

_________________
Watch out for porcupine exiting turn 9!!!!!!

AX-1995 Honda Civic CX FSP
RR-1995 Honda DelSol VTEC GT4
2009 Canadian Solosprint Champion.
ARMS Race Director. Race@armsinc.ca

I thought about it, and the potential issue with not knowing during an event who is winning and who is losing (due to only having immediate access to the RAW times) is trivial to fix in low-tech fashion
Any event with 20+ people (which would include all regionals, I expect) has more people marshaling than really necessary. We had 3 people at each station on Sunday's club event.
Anywho, it would be easy to assign someone to be in charge of "PAX". Give them a sheet of PAX values and a $2 calculator and they should be easily able to make the calculation for each run prior to the next run finishing. It would make the scores (almost) immediately accessible at a glance for the competitors


I believe the PAX values are derived fairly and are very useful. I still think that the only issue with PAX as a whole is the drastic difference in driving difficulty of getting 100% out of a low-classed car compared to a high-classed car. Ex. It would be much more feasible for an amateur driver to get 100% out of a Miata in STX than a Viper in SS. Not much you can do about that though


Joel, I think you can have upper OR lower, but not both. Sounds like you're safe

_________________
Money ---> Heat and Noise

MMSC #12/ASP

Why not just code an excel spreadsheet? That would be pretty basic to get up and running and could show live placing.

Being an employee at Future Shop, i've also put some thought into bringing all of us into the 21st century. A live scoring table on a screen (Could be a duplicate of what Pidge works on) would be very easy to setup. I'll be bringing this up in the near future with maybe a few prices etc. The only real added hassle that I can think of would be transporting the screen.

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#20 Scion FR-S 6MT Powered by:
Great North Performance, Morine's Towing Performance & Off Road, Jani-King Canada and Blue Buzzard Performance Parts.

2013+14+15 Atlantic Sports Car Club Overall Autocross Champion
2013+14+15 Atlantic Region Motor Sports Overall Autocross Champion
2017-18 BAC Overall Rallycross Champion

That would work great for checking things after the event, but during the event it's important for the people competing to know whether they're winning or losing, and by how much

It might be possible to make it work during an event as well, but that's really out of my wheelhouse

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Money ---> Heat and Noise

MMSC #12/ASP

First of all, the old timing software NBSCC was using in 2003 could handle PAX just fine, and the modern systems can as well. It becomes more challenging when a car not only has a class (STX) with a PAX to keep track of, but also a grouping for final results (ST).

I think the modern software MMSC uses is able to do this.

Clubs can do what they want, but I think regionals need to do something like this as well (preferable the same scheme)

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Charles

The problem you have with new people entering the sport is they may have done changes that would have put them in an uncompetitive class. There's not much you can do about that. The more experienced competitors will target a class and prepare their vehicle to the maximum of that class. Whether you're grouping classes or not that doesn't change; you always want to do the maximum to make you competitive within a class. Unless you're only interested in getting FTD, if you're looking to be competitive you would have done whatever changes you wanted/had to do anyway.

This is the MR2 that was at Slemon in 2008, good example of someone trying to max out their car: