FWIW, when I loaned Aaron my car (when his car broke) he was 0.5 sec faster than me. Of course that sucked for me, but that was reality! There is a huge talent difference between drivers in our defunct SM series (as well as cars themselves). A $40K legal car WILL be better than a $4K legal car!

Also, I have never seen an engine teardown at AMP due to protest. Even if there was, nobody would know what they were looking at anyway. For instance, you can take a front crank pulley and machine an offset key (few thousands) to get a timing advantage, and if you looked at it you would not know the difference. In racing, some people cheat. That's a fact. Obviously for whatever reason, they want to win. So at AMP we built a GT ruleset to eliminate the teardown process. That works for GT. However, SM is different and in our Region we do not have the expertise and $$$ to ensure that the SM cars are within the rules.

So you guys are having a large discussion on how to make a series work and to create parity for all. Fact is, you can't. Somebody will always show up with more talent, better prepared, better crew, better hair, better equipment and better machinery and more physically/mentally fit than you.

IMO, the easiest new SM series would be to keep the existing ruleset in place, but simply add reward weight to the cars. That would slow down the fast guys and help with the slow guys and create some sort of parity and could even stop any cheating because what would be the point?

_________________
GT1 - 88 Camaro 1LE/Nissan 200SX
GT2 - 90 CRX/Nissan 200SX
GT3 - 88 CRX/1975 Civic/1997 Acura Integra
GT4 - 93/2000 Mazda Miata
GT5 - 89 Suzuki Swift GTI
GT6 - 86 CRX
ITE - 88 Camaro 1LE
ITA - 89/90 CRX Si
ITB - 85 Civic 1500S/89 Suzuki Swift GTI
ITC - 85/86 Civic
SM - 93/2000 Mazda Miata
Targa NL - 88 CRX Si
Rally Sprint - 95 Del Sol VTEC
Unlimited - All of the above!

Well your partly right Andy. Most people at amp are better drivers than me. Aaron included. Aaron god bless him could not do a 1:18 flat in my car. I believe everyone at amp has driven my car at some point including Aaron. Most of the time it was without the restrictor. Check the times out over the years. See if you can find any other driver that has done a 1:18 flat in my car. So point being it is both car and driver. The percentage of either / or is debatable. In any case I am finished with defending? myself , just thought you may want to check your facts.

The best time I did in your car (when it was mine) was a 1:19.00 flat. That was with the typhoon air intake and unrestricted.

BUT, you put a Drago legal head on that car and have it tuned properly and I would easily bet a 1.5 to 2 sec gain - no sh!t!

_________________
GT1 - 88 Camaro 1LE/Nissan 200SX
GT2 - 90 CRX/Nissan 200SX
GT3 - 88 CRX/1975 Civic/1997 Acura Integra
GT4 - 93/2000 Mazda Miata
GT5 - 89 Suzuki Swift GTI
GT6 - 86 CRX
ITE - 88 Camaro 1LE
ITA - 89/90 CRX Si
ITB - 85 Civic 1500S/89 Suzuki Swift GTI
ITC - 85/86 Civic
SM - 93/2000 Mazda Miata
Targa NL - 88 CRX Si
Rally Sprint - 95 Del Sol VTEC
Unlimited - All of the above!

So Mitch, can I take from that you are leaning more towards adopting the SCCA SM GCRs (with maybe a couple small tweaks for our region such as tires)?

I keep going around in circles on using the SM GCRs and how to enforce it. I was thinking only keeping the sections of the GCR that could be reasonably expected to be enforced (things like suspension, air intakes etc. that could be verified by just looking at the car or a set of calipers) and removing things that would require tear downs and special tools (heads, compression, etc). But if those sections are removed and someone shows up with an obviously modified engine (eg. lumpy cam) then we don't have rules in place to protest that. But if we do protest them, we don't have a means (tools and people) to enforce it, so why have the rule in the first place. So around and around it goes.

Using GCRs that we can't enforce is going back to when the SM started. And that was fine until people appeared that started taking the series very seriously. So for 2017 we would possibly be ok using the GCRs again since it will just be friendly competition again among a few cars, but at some point there will be the same implosion again. True the big prizes aren't there, but there have been people that got upset or spent $$$ when there was only a $6 trophy at stake.

The other thing that adopting the GCRs means is spending more to keep the car competitive. I doubt my car will be able to stay with Mitch's or Luc's in true SM form unless I put some money into it, and that's money I won't have next season. Brian B is in a similar boat, suspect he'd need an engine refresh at the very least with the car back in SM form to stay competitive. I know it's racing and it takes money to compete, but I don't want to be way off the pace in SM when I can pull a restrictor plate and go have fun in GT5. Now it's possible that all my car could need is some setup work, fresh tires, and a half decent driver to be in the mix, but I'm fairly certain that Brian has worked on developing the car over the past few years so he's going to have to spend money to keep up. So for him no restrictor and GT5 makes sense.

What I was planning on doing, before a SM series was mentioned, was running in GT with a home made restrictor sized such that slowed my car enough to put it near the same pace as the two SM in the field. Ideally restrict it enough so that I still had to push hard to mix it up with the SM and the finishing order came down to who made the fewer mistakes. Doesn't cost me anything and should make a fun season for me. I believe a homemade "special" restrictor was what Brian P. suggested earlier for Brian B. and I was hoping BB would do the same, but he's clearly stated he's not interested in restricting his car, which is too bad.

Edit: There were a few posts that came in while I typed this, but seem to follow along the same ideas.

No way are you going to get 1.5-2 sec from a spec legal head on a low HP car.
We changed the entire engine on our e30, from 210hp to 270hp and didn't get near that.

_________________
Paul

I don't think anybody should be worrying too much about this stuff right now. People can do what they want. We barely have enough cars of any sort turning up for our races right now to make a respectable field, we don't want to be scaring off any potential competitor with a bunch of bickering. It would be great if we could get SM going again, but it's more important to let everyone do what they think is fun. I'd like people reading this to get a positive vibe about what we are trying to do, not a negative one.

Me, I'm going to keep my car SM-legal. I hope some others do, too. I hope to do another event in the states, and you need the car to be legal to do that. I really enjoyed the heads-up competition there, and that's what I'm keying on for next year. I will probably do some ARMS events as well, but I don't really care what class I end up in for those (unless real SM somehow miraculously comes back). Bracket racing for championships just doesn't tick any boxes for me (because I think the winners are sort of artificial), but the racing itself is just fine. Does that make any sense?

Yeah its kind of what I have been trying to get across the whole time. Ironically you guys are chasing people away already and now Mckay has turned full circle and wants to run a modified restrictor. OMG that is funny. You dont have to make one Mckay, I have one I will give you. LMFAO . If that abreviation is still current. Sincerely guys thanks. You have just lightened the mood of this post. Good luck in the series. Your going to need it with this much squabbling before it even starts. Internet shuts off today so dont get the wrong impression if you dont see me on here. People can text me at 902-824-4083 if you have something helpful and positive to help get more racers out. Which should be everyones main priority.

Probably not on our track. But if it was also tuned properly I can see it. Bents engine & tuning is 100% OEM stock. There is still a huge potential gain in the 2nd gen Miata that is currently not developed. In the US the 2nd gen cars eat the first gen cars big time, especially on big tracks. That is the main reason all the front runners are using 2nd gen cars.

Could the e30 be perhaps maxed out (lap time) regardless of HP? It gets pretty extreme down at those lap times. To go from 19's to 18's (even 17's) doesn't take a huge amount. I did it with my CRX with only 145hp...

Anyway...

_________________
GT1 - 88 Camaro 1LE/Nissan 200SX
GT2 - 90 CRX/Nissan 200SX
GT3 - 88 CRX/1975 Civic/1997 Acura Integra
GT4 - 93/2000 Mazda Miata
GT5 - 89 Suzuki Swift GTI
GT6 - 86 CRX
ITE - 88 Camaro 1LE
ITA - 89/90 CRX Si
ITB - 85 Civic 1500S/89 Suzuki Swift GTI
ITC - 85/86 Civic
SM - 93/2000 Mazda Miata
Targa NL - 88 CRX Si
Rally Sprint - 95 Del Sol VTEC
Unlimited - All of the above!

Yes, after thinking about it, if it's just another bracket then why not just enter in a GT bracket and be done with it. So if not brackets there is still success ballast, but someone could get around that by just cheating a little more (for example I could increase the size of the restrictor each race weekend to offset any ballast that had been added). So maybe if it's spec miata series then make the cars comply with a "spec".

So looks like if we do nothing we'll have about 1.5 legal SM at a minimum next season (Luc full time and Mitch for a few events). Have heard back from one other that said that the only way they would return is if the series was for SM (ie SCCA GCR legal SM) but the chances of them returning are slim. I could run mine as an SM. So somewhere between 1.5 and 3.5 SM as it stands for now. Hopefully we can grow that a bit.

We could simply put a GCR in place and say that any car that shows up in compliance with the SM GCRs it can register in the SM class. They would run with the GT cars but not be subject to a bracket. If there are 3 or more cars then possibly we could call it an SM series and have ARMS publish separate standings for the SM series. If there are say 5 or more cars then have separate races from GT. Short term the SM teams would have to rely on policing themselves in terms of GCR compliance (ARMS will not have the resources to do that, possibly beyond weighing the cars). By the class policing itself the teams effectively determine how willing they are to allow the other teams to bend the rules which will probably be fine if it stays as a friendly competition and there is not a lot at stake. I will have to take a look at what the protest rules and procedures to see what would happen if someone showed up with a non compliant car. Upon being protested what options does the non compliant car have beyond correcting the noncompliance (not allowed to run, dq'd from any event entered, allowed to run GT instead,...?).

BTW I don't consider people sharing their opinions, bouncing around ideas, and discussing options in a polite and civil way as bickering. The only way we'll sort this out if everyone gives their input. We don't have to sort this out right now, so take a break away from the keyboard if needed.

AMP is more a handling track vs a power track, 145hp CRX should easily do a 17, look at the well driven 1.6 Miatas, they were close to that fast with what, 120hp?

_________________
Paul

Been thinking about the enforcement of technical specs. What about allowing for the possibility a post race impound? I would expect that such a thing wouldn't be needed if there are just a handful of cars running in SM as typically we are grouped together in the paddock and we are wandering around each others paddock spaces are the races after the races anyway. And if someone saw something out of place we'd just mention it to the team if we thought it was unfair and give them a chance to correct it. However there should still be something in place if the "friendly" approach doesn't work. Since the miata treams will know the rules as well as anyone in the paddock, they are likely the best people to spot noncompliances.

What about a post race impound rule something like:

Post-Race Impound and Inspection
A post race impound may be called at the conclusion of any race for any of the finishers, at the discretion of the (race director, steward ?). The duration of the impound will be dependent on the race schedule, such to allow the cars sufficient time to prepare to the next race. (minimum of 15 minutes?).
During the impound period, the team associated with the impounded car may be required to
- Raise and place the car on four (4) jack-stands, a minimum of 12” from the ground or floor level
- Remove all four (4) wheels and tires
- Open the hood, trunk and all other enclosed compartments
- Have sufficient tools and crew on-hand so as to remove the following components, parts, systems and/or assemblies:
Spark Plugs, ECU Assembly, Cam or valve cover(s), Intake, Shock absorbers and/or struts assemblies, other?
During the impound period it may be determined that further inspections may be required that cannot be reasonably conducted during the impound period. The series reserves the right to seal any component/assembly for further inspection by a third party at a later date.
Penalties: Any vehicle found to be illegal during post-race impound and inspection, or later 3rd party inspection, MAY be DQ’d… or
MAY be re-classified as GT5... or MAY be assigned penalty laps… or ..?
based on the severity of the illegality.
Upon the close of impound, or completion of 3rd party inspection where called for, race results and standings are final.

Now hopefully we'd never need to use this, and expect this would only occur if triggered by a protest by another team. It doesn't get around the fact that somethings are hard to detect and there's who pays for the cost of tear downs/3rd party inspections, but having an option like this might prevent someone from bending the rules more than they should, and gives a remedy if someone turns up with a SM that is obviously breaking the rules.

Nothing makes racing fun like pulling an engine apart at 5pm on a sunday when you want to go home and/or have to work the next day. It sucked in pro and it would suck even worse in am racing. Give up the policing, run a bracket and have fun racing. Too much emphasis on off track BS and not nough on just racing and having fun. You don't need strict rules around here.

If it's an impound of 1 you can't protest yourself so I wouldn't worry about it.

_________________
'99 BMW M3 / "Elvic"

I know it looks complicated by the time you read through the SM GCR and look at policing things, but in reality I'm only looking for 2 things for SM in 2017:

1 - if a (mostly legal) SM shows up it can be classed as SM and appears as an SM in the results (that didn't happen in 2016)
2- a few SM show up to race and we go out and give the Hondas and VWs (or any other GT5-GT6) cars a good scrap. (that did happen in 2016 to some extent)

If we can do that then maybe a few more SM will show up in 2018. If we soon don't have a series for SM then there won't be many left in this region as they are sold off.

If SM owners mostly came back with "racing in GT is fine, see you in 2017" then I'd be happy with that (and it would be a lot less work!), but most so far seem to be leaning towards SM instead of GT. I would be very surprised if we ever had to tear down an engine, and most SM owners would agree that cheating wasn't an issue in the old SM series. The only reason we need rules is so someone doesn't show up in an LS swapped Miata and try to enter as an SM. If there are no rules then someone will show up with one and say "well, there's no rule saying I can't and no penalties if I do."

I can't see policing in any way working here.
Look at what has already happened, SM was created, grew until it got competitive and then it imploded, because nobody could manage it.

_________________
Paul

Is there not enough historical data to determine a break out lap time for a Spec Legal Miata at AMP? I know it's not entirely the answer to the points raised above about specs, cheating, etc, but it seems the easiest way to police things. If you are cheating to get close to the break out time, eventually you will get good enough to break out.

_________________
Brent O'Connor
ASCC Member
MHPDC Volunteer
2007 Mustang GT
Kentville

Yes, we should certainly know what a skilled driver in a well prepped SM should do for lap times at AMP. The other thing is that since the cars are relatively equal, a car with a significant power or handling advantage would be fairly noticeable. As mentioned before the driver is more of a factor in most cases.

We won't be able to effectively police some technical stuff here. However I don't believe that the previous series implosion had much to do with technical infringements. Yes there was serious competition, but there were places where the rule book was lacking in terms of dealing with what was going that have been remedied since then and having been though that once I would hope that we are much better prepared to handle it should that type of situation arise again. And without the big prizes there shouldn't be a reason to take it that seriously again.

Hey Ken, it's really great to hear your enthusiasm on this.

I'm not following all the details of the stuff you're throwing out ('cause it's a long time until spring, and much may happen between now and then), but don't let the pooh-pooh's get you down. There will be Miata's racing next year, and it will be fun no matter what the rules are.

I've gotta say, I'm sort of favoring the 'informal' championship idea of the things pitched so far (i.e. a handshake agreement to be in, run under the regular GT rules but keep our own scoring, cheat too much and majority opinion kicks you out). No prizes, no strict rules enforcement, no headaches. Sounds like fun to me.

I'd like to nominally run under normal SM rules, but don't care about a bit of twisting. As long as folks are up front about it, and it's not too blatant, who cares.

Anyway, carry on. Count on me to be there with a car, no matter what.

Thanks Brian Bent for your compliment about my common sense. I appreciate that.

Andy, whilst I agree with your comment about DRIVERS, some being quicker than others no matter what car you put them in, I disagree that was the factor making the approx. 6 second difference. I have hard data from one test I ran in 2014 that shows Aaron was 1.359 seconds per lap faster than me (Average lap time of three consecutive hot laps: Aaron 1:21.811, me 1:23.170) driving my car during back-to-back runs; no changes to the car. It is well documented that Aaron could run a 1:18.xxx in his car. Conclusions: I am a slower driver than Aaron, AND my car is slower than his. These are facts. By extrapolation, I am a slower driver than the other front-runners, and my car is slower than the other front-runner's cars. This statement is a well founded assumption. Driver's names shall remain nameless; on the same race day I was told by one front-runner himself that "my car is 100% SPEC" and I was told by another front-runner himself that "I'm running 16Hp over SPEC now and I still can't catch NAME (referring to another front-runner). Gee'z what do I have to do to be able to beat him?" Also a fact: Brian Bent now runs his car in the GT5 class with his 1.8L Engine unrestricted on whatever tires he wants and his lap times still can't match the pointy end of the defunct SM series times. Who's cars met SPEC and who's didn't? Heck, I don't even know if my car does for sure because I never built it, nor have I ever tore down any components to check. Well we will never know for sure, and at this point it is moot.

I am putting the above information out here to clear up some of the rumblings, speculation, and BS that has been bantered about long enough. I have kept quiet up until now because I never really cared whether I was at the pointy end or not. I raced door-to-door whenever I had the opportunity for FUN, all the while knowing I had a slower car. I raced to improve my driving skills. I raced respectfully to the other driver's at all times. I savored my few higher place finishes over the years when they happened, because it was 'cool' to be up that high no matter how I got there. And most importantly for me, I was at the track to have comradeship with the other drivers (SM and other classes), crew members, marshals, officials, and safety workers. Since my health has gone to hell-in-a-handbasket preventing me from racing, I miss it terribly. Sitting out the 2016 season was very tough on me.

There are some good ideas floating about in this thread related to creating some sort of Spec Miata Series 2.0. There are obviously some good-will and good intentions being put forward. There are also some hurt feelings and misunderstandings evident. I do hope common sense will prevail and some common ground can be found. As for me, I'm out. I sold my SM yesterday to a nice fellow in Edmonton. He and his family are going to enjoy the car doing High Performance Driving at Area 27, in BC. Check it out: area27.ca Jacques Villeneuve has designed the circuit. He has invited me out for next Spring as his guest to drive the track and give him some driving pointers. I hope my health is good enough to take him up on his offer.

Life Lessons in this post in case you missed them: Have FUN while you are healthy. Be a positive influence on others. Be respectful at all times. Use your common sense and talents to do good unto others.

Kind regards everyone!

Kevin

_________________
Kevin Sibley
1984 Pontiac Fiero Custom 355 SBC V8

Sorry to hear that you've sold your car Kevin.

Regarding the other stuff, I posted a pic on facebook just now for you to look at. I don't know how to link it here or I would. Data is data, and I had my recorder in his car when he did what I think is the absolute SM lap record at AMP. You tell me what you make of it.

So I guess you guys are not interested in this type of ruleset? It is the simplest way to get EVERYONE parity and race full out if that is what you want. From what I read pretty much everyone wants something else; lots of complicated rules, etc. that no one can agree on. There is no fixin this boys. 3 Spec Miatas have now been sold outside of our Region. This will continue unless ARMS is willing to do the work required to create and promote a series. I don't see any of that going on any time in the near future. Its a sad state of affairs.

ARMS needs to select an individual to be the Miata 2.0 (please remove the "spec" - because they will no longer be "spec") series ruleset designer, negotiator, organizer, promoter, etc. in order to get something off the ground. This should be a major topic at the AGM race workshop. This person should NOT be a current ARMS executive member (too conflicting) and is willing to do whats required to do the job. Until this happens nothing concrete will get pushed forward. All you will continue to get is a few old guys yacking on the internet...

_________________
GT1 - 88 Camaro 1LE/Nissan 200SX
GT2 - 90 CRX/Nissan 200SX
GT3 - 88 CRX/1975 Civic/1997 Acura Integra
GT4 - 93/2000 Mazda Miata
GT5 - 89 Suzuki Swift GTI
GT6 - 86 CRX
ITE - 88 Camaro 1LE
ITA - 89/90 CRX Si
ITB - 85 Civic 1500S/89 Suzuki Swift GTI
ITC - 85/86 Civic
SM - 93/2000 Mazda Miata
Targa NL - 88 CRX Si
Rally Sprint - 95 Del Sol VTEC
Unlimited - All of the above!

Yes, sad to see another car leave the region. Especially one that I've had a lot of fun in (Thanks Kevin!). Hopefully Kevin will be back on track again before too long.

From the discussion so far I think the interested SM owners have given up on some form of parity. Lets face it if you want parity (brackets, success ballast, etc.) and a non-spec car then go run in a GT class. If you want a spec series then let's create a spec we can live with and go from there. At this point I count 5 drivers (4 owners) indicating running the cars to a spec of some sort if they were to attend, and one wanting an open series. Would be great to hear from the rest of them.

There has been a request to put the SM series on the agenda for the AGM. I'm hoping the remaining SM owners will show up and give their thoughts on what any potential SM series should look like. Would be great to get their input before the AGM so we can have a productive meeting. ARMS have been very supportive of trying to get a series going again for SM. Right now it's in the teams court: if we can get together on what the series should look like then it could happen. As one of the SM owners I'm trying to make that happen but need the cooperation and input from the other SM teams. Would be great to see the remaining SM back out on track again.

Thanks for posting that data plot Mitch. You had mentioned some time ago that putting a simple data logger in the cars would be an easy way detect illegal engine mods (ie. a hp advantage), and I would have to agree. The loggers are inexpensive (~$100, and there are a few around that could be loaned out), quick and easy to install (taped or strapped in), and it's easy to see why one driver/car is quicker than another. Of course a team could sandbag with the logger installed, but it would be obvious if they went slower when running with the logger. Would just need a rule saying that ARMS is permitted to install loggers where they see fit, and some reassurances that the data wouldn't be distributed to the other teams without permission.

If the logger indicated that a car had an illegal mod then could look at penalties, inspections or tests, or just get the car owner to correct the car before racing in the series again. Again suspect it wouldn't come to that, but with something like that in the rules it would cut down on the temptation to bend the rules and possibly any suspicions and accusations.

Ahhh crap. I think I wanted to buy that car sold to Edmonton (still in contemplation so not blaming anyone including myself).

As an outsider who basically said he wants to race next year (and my wife did not flat out say no), I have been thinking about Spec Miata (as gt or spec, ideally both) as they are a good entry point, and I was hoping for a solid car to buy locally. So tongue firmly in cheek, I am unsure if I should try to stir sh!t to get someone else to sell, or try to help unify the group.

Not sure if I am ready to weigh in on my opinions yet, but what cars are out there now for sale? Problem number one is getting more race cars to amp... and I want to help with that problem.

John

_________________
73 BMW 2002tii / 84 Porsche 911 3.4 / 1997 BMW e36 M3 “the rocket” / 2016 Ford Focus RS

#14 is for sale but you probably knew that already. Wrong color I guess.

....are you kidding??? That colour is perfect! (Mazda Spirited Green)

_________________
GT1 - 88 Camaro 1LE/Nissan 200SX
GT2 - 90 CRX/Nissan 200SX
GT3 - 88 CRX/1975 Civic/1997 Acura Integra
GT4 - 93/2000 Mazda Miata
GT5 - 89 Suzuki Swift GTI
GT6 - 86 CRX
ITE - 88 Camaro 1LE
ITA - 89/90 CRX Si
ITB - 85 Civic 1500S/89 Suzuki Swift GTI
ITC - 85/86 Civic
SM - 93/2000 Mazda Miata
Targa NL - 88 CRX Si
Rally Sprint - 95 Del Sol VTEC
Unlimited - All of the above!

John would be interested in hearing the views of any potential series participants. Maybe if we do the right things it will convince you (and others) show up with a car.

All cars are for sale at the right price are they not?

Brian, i love your car, color too... but I also need to beat your a$$ on track. How can I do that fair and square (or if i am slower, by cheating and sabotage...) if I buy your car? I am not doing this for fun folks... rather this is a grudge match between me and a man with hair that is far too perfect to be true.

That is right, I said it.

_________________
73 BMW 2002tii / 84 Porsche 911 3.4 / 1997 BMW e36 M3 “the rocket” / 2016 Ford Focus RS

Buy it and give me half of the hour long. You can kick my ass all over the track in the identical car. Then we will see if your as heavy hung as you think you are. Call me tonight around 10:00 pm sweetheart.

Haha... thats the spirit!!!

_________________
73 BMW 2002tii / 84 Porsche 911 3.4 / 1997 BMW e36 M3 “the rocket” / 2016 Ford Focus RS