Still some discussion on JDM vehicles so I'll propose adding the following to the ARMS Autoslalom Regulations:

Proposal 1:


Proposal 2:


Proposal 3:


Proposal 4:


Discuss (this or any other topic) below.

I have a 1997 E36 M3 with the S50B32 6 cyl, that came from the Japan market. It is identical to a Euro model though, and left hand drive. I'm looking to see if I can get it classed in STU regionally. It compares very favorably with the North American Spec E46 M3 that is currently classes in STU. Same gearbox and diff ratio, less hp (321 vs 333), is a couple hundred pounds lighter but is tire limited to a 245 where the E46 can easily fit 265-275 with no mods. The main comparison locally would be Scott M's E36 US spec M3 that will run in STR and has a more favorable PAX (.841 vs .845), as it should. This would allow me to run street tires and not have to do a bunch of permanent mods that hurt the value of the vehicle, and spend a pile of money on power, wheels, and Hoosiers. It is already on RE71R's, so it is essentially ready to go for an STU class....

Any comments?

I would add "and Prepared" to your exclusion note to cover cars with stripped interiors/lexan windows. SCCA rulebook specifically excludes non US cars in that class as well. See section 17.0.A.2:

"Cars running in Prepared Category must have been series produced with normal road touring equipment, capable of being licensed for normal road use in the United States, and normally sold and delivered through the manufacturer’s retail sales outlets in the US."

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'99 BMW M3 / "Elvic"

Propose: A Competitor who starts/completes/finishes a "run" that is assigned a "re-run" due to a timer malfunction or similar carry over any penalties accumulated during the initial "run".
Justification: The Competitor completed the course without knowledge of being given a re-run and would benefit from "no penalties carried over" re-run.

Propose: A Competitor who is red-flagged during their "run" must, after stopping to confirm with a course worker, return DIRECTLY to the start/finish area without passing through as much of the remaining course as safely possible.
Justification: The Competitor with benefit from driving the remaining elements of the course without a penalty to their remaining runs.

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"Your car goes where your eyes go" - Enzo (the dog)

Brian Jarvis
Barbarian Mutter Werks Motorsports

according to SCCA - the E36 M3 is STU so I'm not sure why Scott's US E36 M3 would be going to Street Touring Roadster

I'm in favour of allowing JDM cars in equivalent ST* classes for ARMS

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Charles

That doesn't really work because the competitor now has to travel the course twice flawlessly to avoid picking up a penalty
I'd be more comfortable with just ignoring a potential rerun (due to timer malfunction) if the vehicle picked up 2 or more cones during the run. The run was going to be trashed anyway, so there's no reason to redo it



This only works safely for courses that allow a single car on-course at a time, but otherwise makes sense

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Money ---> Heat and Noise

MMSC #12/ASP

Right, why would a hard-top M3 be classed as a roadster?

A lot of JDM cars were offered with different equipment that wasn't available in the NA versions, so I understand why they are not allowed in a lower (ie less-modified) class where such differences are generally not permitted

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Money ---> Heat and Noise

MMSC #12/ASP

I DO NOT agree with JDM and other NON-USDM cars running in the SAME class as USDM counterparts for the SP classes. JDM cars normally are lighter, some a lot light, and Have more power. Plus some were never sold here in the first place. Integra type Rs have some pretty big differences from JDM to USDM. They should start in SM/SSM/SMF, as anyone could go get a JDM or whatever motor and put it in there car. All they need to have is a motor from the car manufacturer.

I would agree with Steve in the idea of placing his car in a higher class (If available). But that would be something that the participant would have to do and bring it to the ARMS or local club solo director. I think that is a fair way of doing it. As long as the Majority of the work is done by the competitor. If the director finds a problem or inaccuracy, then its dropped and the competitor can fix it and reapply. But that is more work for directors to do.

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Watch out for porcupine exiting turn 9!!!!!!

AX-1995 Honda Civic CX FSP
RR-1995 Honda DelSol VTEC GT4
2009 Canadian Solosprint Champion.
ARMS Race Director. Race@armsinc.ca

I have no problem with the penalties being removed, as the problem was created by the club (timing is clubs problem). Its kinda like apologizing in autoslalom talk.



I know in DIGBY I said in the sunday drivers meeting, if you come across a down cone and are on the right side of the course (BIG END) Turn around were you are and drive back to the stop box (WITHOUT Impeding the other ends car if still on track, witch is highly unlikely, as you need to stop, tell the worker of the cone, then turn around and head back) You were to not do any more of the course, you could follow the course back to the TAXI as it is the safest way along the course. You can only have this rule at places like digby..... There is no other way to finish up at the church, magic mountain, Colosseum, slemon, or AMP. You would have a car driving off course to the stop box, or paddock. There could be something the course was designed around. Say broken glass, Timing wires, worker areas. Or another car on course. While i fully understand and agree with your idea, the logistics are a bigger problem.

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Watch out for porcupine exiting turn 9!!!!!!

AX-1995 Honda Civic CX FSP
RR-1995 Honda DelSol VTEC GT4
2009 Canadian Solosprint Champion.
ARMS Race Director. Race@armsinc.ca

I'm confused. You say JDM and other Non-USDM cars should start in SM/SSM/SMF yet, but agree with Steve classing his JDM BMW in STU? I'm guessing most cars would start in SM/SSM/SMF as they are Canadian Market except Steve who can run STU by himself?

Re: Steve's car, being a couple hundred pounds lighter is significant IMHO

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Money ---> Heat and Noise

MMSC #12/ASP

Sorry for the confusion, due to the fact we as ARMS run SCCA (AMERICAN) RULES for CAR classing, we Must consider all cars sold and drivin in Canada to be considered USDM cars. Even though, there are some cars in canada that have a much higher level of HP or performance goodies then there USDM counterparts. This can literary be a non-stop arguement due to this problem. We either class based off Canadian cars..... or consider all Canadian cars to be USDM.

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Watch out for porcupine exiting turn 9!!!!!!

AX-1995 Honda Civic CX FSP
RR-1995 Honda DelSol VTEC GT4
2009 Canadian Solosprint Champion.
ARMS Race Director. Race@armsinc.ca

Yes I agree with you.
Have you ever weighted your RX-7, just wondering if its any lighter then a USDM RX-7? I know Supras are, by 80 or so KGS, and the JDM type R integras are also 60-80 KGS lighter then then USDM ones.

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Watch out for porcupine exiting turn 9!!!!!!

AX-1995 Honda Civic CX FSP
RR-1995 Honda DelSol VTEC GT4
2009 Canadian Solosprint Champion.
ARMS Race Director. Race@armsinc.ca

Lighter in comparison to the E46 M3, my car goes around 3200, while they are usually high 3300-3400. That's not the same as a sub 2500 Honda. Plus it has less power and less tire. Trying to create an equal ground between my car and the E46

There's already considerable differences in weight/HP among cars in the same classes as is... what's the problem with assigning specifics cars in a Canadian-specific appendix?

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"Your car goes where your eyes go" - Enzo (the dog)

Brian Jarvis
Barbarian Mutter Werks Motorsports

Are you saying you want to compare every car sold in canada with every car sold in the US, find the differences and class them?

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Watch out for porcupine exiting turn 9!!!!!!

AX-1995 Honda Civic CX FSP
RR-1995 Honda DelSol VTEC GT4
2009 Canadian Solosprint Champion.
ARMS Race Director. Race@armsinc.ca

On the rerun and red flag rule:

http://www.asncanada.com/wp-content/upl ... ations.pdf



Cut and dry.

And I agree with the rule as it stands. It is the club's fault the competitor did not get a time for a run and they need to provide the opportunity for another run. Yes, there are situations where it provides an opportunity for a better run by the competitor, but there are also situations where it very obviously didn't record what would have been a run faster than the rerun. People are getting screwed in either situation.

For the red flags, the driver should be taking directions from the workers who *should* be asking the organizer what to do after explaining the situation. I've never seen a situation where we red flagged someone who then proceeded on the race line to the finish. But the corner workers need to be getting clear instructions on what to tell the car to do. In some cases you may want them to pull immediately off course and park because they are leaking something.

If a car does not follow instructions given by the course workers (or during the driver's meeting), then they should not be granted a rerun.

Due to differing venues, it needs to be covered in the driver's meeting. We had the same discussion last year about pointing out downed cones - on some courses (AMP, slemon, digby after the turnaround) if someone stops then proceeds at 50% pace they might cause a red flag and a rerun for the car behind them. They also may make a poor decision and cross into a section of the course in front of another competitor. Both should be covered in the morning so competitors have an idea of what to do in both situations. Red flag should probably always be "full stop, wait for instruction unless your safety is at risk by remaining in the car".

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'99 BMW M3 / "Elvic"

And on the topic of my car,

http://cdn.growassets.net/user_files/sc ... 1455897525



STR hasn't been roadster only for years. 370z, datsun 280s, FC RX7 and some older porsches have been there for awhile.

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'99 BMW M3 / "Elvic"

Every car? No... 99.9% of them are the same... On a case-by-case basis where a potential JDM/Euro model enters Canada 10 years before it can go in the US... that's what's been asked/proposed...

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"Your car goes where your eyes go" - Enzo (the dog)

Brian Jarvis
Barbarian Mutter Werks Motorsports

Never weighed mine, but it should be pretty much the same
AFAIK only the RZ versions (which were Japan only) were different from the USDM/CDM models. They had the carbon kevlar seats and such. Of course, someone could also bring a 2002 Spirit R model out to race and it would likely be different as well (likely slightly better in every way), but I know very little about the newer models.

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Money ---> Heat and Noise

MMSC #12/ASP

The way I read Ming's first post is that JDM cars will be classed same as USDM.. If I was wrong, My bad.

_________________
Watch out for porcupine exiting turn 9!!!!!!

AX-1995 Honda Civic CX FSP
RR-1995 Honda DelSol VTEC GT4
2009 Canadian Solosprint Champion.
ARMS Race Director. Race@armsinc.ca

I think you should dig around a bit. Japan has much lower crash rattings and Normally have smaller lighter bumpers and so on.( you already know this anyway) I would really like to know how the Integra type R weight 60-80 KGS less in japan VS USDM. same model, same options. Thats a lot of weight missing. For a car thats already stripped down. lol Plus JDM models have a 4.7FD and a few shorter gears. Plus bigger brakes. (but brakes are openish in SP).

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Watch out for porcupine exiting turn 9!!!!!!

AX-1995 Honda Civic CX FSP
RR-1995 Honda DelSol VTEC GT4
2009 Canadian Solosprint Champion.
ARMS Race Director. Race@armsinc.ca

Here's one that's been discussed at about 103842378 events i've been to. Can we do more than 4 runs in an event, specifically at regional events when fewer-than-anticipated competitors show up? Slemon is a great example of a venue that could have easily handed double the amount of total runs. In my opinion, 8 45 second runs is much more fun that four 90 second runs. (i'm not picking on the Slemon event/MMSC, We had a ton of fun this year, but it's the best example. plus an MMSC club event was one of the few events ive done that had >4 runs). I get that some venues just can't handle multiple cars, so it makes the whole day inefficient. But at least i think we should strive for more runs when the opportunity comes up!

As for classing of M3's, i think the real solution is we all just get AP1 s2000's and get along We could even try a group-buy on hard tops so we don't have to be seen in them in public. But actually, I'm stoked to have the E36 in STR next season. And running the Euro-M3 in STU would be cool by me in the ST class. I think regional-classing should be a thing, at least give them provisional classing. Then when Digby comes next year and Steve destroys us on PAX, we can complain about what a big mistake it was

No, the proposal would be that JDM cars would start in the appropriate Street Prepared class which is what ASN sent a bulletin about back in 2012. Just want to clearly have it stated somewhere since people have trouble finding the rule. I wouldn't be opposed if I could run my EVO in STU though. . .

I know it's been brought up before, but I think the committee should come up with a driver's meeting checklist and those should be items on that list.

Alan made one for ASCC, he could probably share a copy.

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'99 BMW M3 / "Elvic"

Well with the exception of a few Porsche & RX7 parcel shelves with seatbelts those are all 2 seaters, and (so far) the class is still named Street Touring® Roadster (STR)

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Charles

As an alternate proposal to JDM cars in ST, what about trying something other regions do - a street tire version of Street Mod. Other clubs use a range of ~0.980-0.985 multiplier for street tires in rcomp classes, I'd probably err on the high side. So if you ran street tires in SM, it would look like this:

SM-S PAX = 0.870x0.985 = 0.856
SSM-S PAX = 0.882x0.985 = 0.868
SMF-S PAX = 0.861*0.985 = 0.848

That way you capture JDM cars that want to run street tires and anyone who is in SM for other reasons. But you may make current SM competitors unhappy, so IDK.

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'99 BMW M3 / "Elvic"

I'd much rather run in an SM class with a street tire modifier than try to shoehorn my car into an ST class. SM would allow me to do a couple more things that would make the car more fun on the street as well instead of sticking to ST prep. I think you could have a fairly well populated local class with SM street tire class.

Whats the process for getting a classing proposal together? Can I get the ball rolling prior to the agm?

CMC used to allow street tires in all classes. I think they still do. Should be easy to implement. So, have SM, SM-S, SSM, SSM-S, SMF, and SMF-S grouped together?

Looking to flesh out the Workshop items here first. Hopefully be able to take all the proposals from this thread and just present them at the workshop for a quick discussion and vote.