On the Time Attack side, I wondered if there were any topics intended for discussion? I see that Race has a line in their agenda including Time Attack. I suspect (but am not certain) this has to do with the combined activities between the Race Committee and Time Attack on the Saturday's we compete.

I had heard some discussion in the paddock about an idea for a format change to the events, but haven't heard anything since.

Personally, I'm content with the series format from this year. There could be room for modifying the number of without passing sessions in favour of increased with passing sessions. This could become useful if the lap times differentials from fast to slow increase, particularly if our participation numbers increase. With increased participants, we could see a need for run groups in the with passing sessions. Not sure how many participants would bring that to being, but something to think about.

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Brent O'Connor
ASCC Member
MHPDC Volunteer
2007 Mustang GT
Kentville

I would go for one or the other over both, but that's just me. Doing both types makes for a long day and I'm pretty much exhausted everytime the passing sessions come around. My preference is still without passing when you're trying to drive 10/10ths, but a switch to passing wouldn't stop me from coming.

If we keep doing both, or only passing, I agree about splitting the groups for passing...2 groups would probably be fine with ~12-16 competitors. If you pick the wrong time in the one hour session you can end up scrubbing a lot of laps with the current time differentials. This years results shows no one spent over 30 minutes on track during the afternoon session, and most usually less. If you stuck with the current format, you could do 2 30 minute sessions back to back as opposed to one single 60 minute session. Keep the average pace of the groups closer and reduce the possible # of cars on track.

Also, the ridiculous $10 spectator fee for a non-spectator sport needs to go. We don't charge for slalom, we don't charge for lapping (that I know of), but we charge for time attack? I know other TA series do (CSCS in ontario for example) but they generally also have drifting, car shows, vendors, etc.

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'99 BMW M3 / "Elvic"

This isn't a 'spectator fee', its a gate fee for AMP, part of how AMP keeps the facility running. We don't pay for the upkeep of Slalom lots and the tracks in Ontario are larger commercial empires and I guarantee they're paying a lot more for rental than we are for our events.

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2005 Forester XT (Daily/B2Tuned), 2000 Subaru Impreza 2.5RS P4WD Class Rally Car, 2006 WRX RallyCross Car (Sponsors: Rally-Tech, Great North Performance, ISI Automotive)
Check out: Rally East, The Ledwidge Lookoff Rally

But really, $10 to watch that? Don't get me wrong, it's exciting, but to us it's exciting. Really, it's just cars driving around the track. AMP is getting the track rental, ARMS gets the gate money.
What the reason I think that they are doing it for, besides that they can, is because they are afraid that people are coming in on Saturday and staying all weekend and getting Sunday for free. Which I can understand, but this isn't the answer in my opinion. If people are there for just Saturday, yellow arm band, free of charge. If they're going both days, red arm band, $10. Then if they show up Sunday, with a yellow band, $10. If someone is walking around the paddock Sunday with a yellow band, kindly send them down to the gate to see Debbie and Walter. The next time maybe not so friendly, but we have to be careful not to mix these last two steps up.
Anyway, not likely the proper place for this, sorry original poster if I contaminated your thread.

At least half it, to 5 bucks. I have friends who would be willing to check it out, but not for $10. That means they won't come, and won't be exposed to motorsports... which in the end means less people likely to participate.

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https://my.flightradar24.com/Sadokist
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2017 Circuit Mont Tremblant Fall Classic - 3rd GTC
2017 Jack Canfield Memorial 3 Hour Enduro - 1st Overall
2019 CASC-OR Celebration of Motorsport - 1st GT2
NBSCC Race Director

I'm not saying it should or shouldn't exist, just want it on record what it IS. There's already enough misrepresentation of things going around discussions these days.

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2005 Forester XT (Daily/B2Tuned), 2000 Subaru Impreza 2.5RS P4WD Class Rally Car, 2006 WRX RallyCross Car (Sponsors: Rally-Tech, Great North Performance, ISI Automotive)
Check out: Rally East, The Ledwidge Lookoff Rally

I too see the gate fee as an obstacle when I'm trying to bring folks out. Having a fee that covers the costs that the spectator generates is important, but ten bucks a day seems high for a lapping and time attack day. It is very helpful though to have folks working the gate, and things like having folks work the gate, marshalling, and officiating have costs. Personally, I would rather be supporting those costs through my competition fees rather than gate revenue - edit - until such a time that the sport is developed and the interest is such that spectator fees are supportable. I'm thinking economics here - area under the supply/demand curve. If lots of spectators are interested, then fees make sense when the $ match the experience the spectator gets from attending.

That said, my calculated costs for running a Time Attack day run around $600 once I factor fees, fuel, tires and consumables (Hitting the wall costs extra ). This is an expensive sport. Paying extra for some friends to come and pit crew for me is not going to stop me.

One fee that has been discussed in the race thread is this - Race licenses currently have a surcharge on them ($50 I believe) that is placed in the Major Capital Costs Account with AMP. That account is used for capital projects like paving. The surcharge was conceived when lapping and time attack was not a major player at AMP. I would not oppose that same fee being assigned to Time Attack and lapping licenses. It does seem odd that racers would be subject to a surcharge that does not apply to other users.

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Brent O'Connor
ASCC Member
MHPDC Volunteer
2007 Mustang GT
Kentville

Do away with the $50 MCCA fee for race.

It's a hold over from a time when AMP raised it's funds in a different manner.

Brent is correct, Lapping, Solo, and our two wheeled Bretheren do not charge such a line item, and it's an irritant to some.

One item that many competitors have said time and time again over the years is they don't wish to be nickle and dimed. Give a price to compete, and they'll pay it.

Time to follow that request.

I also agree with Brent, that trying to encourage someone to attend AMP to spectate an event, with the goal of having them start to compete, can be more difficult when you ding them $10 at the gate. I understand why it's there, as Brian has layed out, but I don't agree with it. We should be looking to grow amateur motorsport. It can be made difficult with steps and hoops.

-I

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"Nos Ludos Intra Vehicula"

"That is on the floor..... in fifth..... 6500????..." -Buffum to Smith (140mph+, Rallye Charlevoix.....)

"A HUNDRED AND EIGHTY FIVE DOLLARS????"

"Great, now we're gonna get frikken' yelled at....."
"Let the record show that the evening degenerated at 2022hrs..... Duly noted..."

I can argue both sides of the gate fee, as I have before depending on which hat I'm wearing. But, put that aside for a minute and look at other examples of facilities that cost money to operate, do you usually get in for free, no. You can't go to Scotia Speedworld and say, "I'm thinking about getting into motorsports and just want to watch," guess what, you still pay. If $10 at the gate is going to stop you from getting involved in motorsports then you were probably never really committed to seriously look at it to begin with. The $10 is just a excuse to not come out to something you probably weren't going to anyway. The $10 was for the whole weekend not per day regardless of if you attended both days or not. Most things in life are not free, we all wish them to be but reality sets in and it's not. Where does everyone think the money comes from to pay for marshalls on the Time Attack days? The days of volunteering your time is becoming scarce, everyone is busy, they have families, work, other things to do, etc... the gate fee helps to offset some of this new and added cost to the sport. For the most part the events cost the same to run if 1 person shows up or 30 but, if we had 30 competitors then guess what, the gate fee may disappear because the event can turn a profit and sub stain itself. With the car counts not increasing, costs to run events going up, we need to cover these costs somehow. Money doesn't grow on trees, especially the new plastic bills!

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Brian
VP, AMP
#51 Vantage Motorsports

All valid points Brian G. I don't disagree with them.

I'm a person from the past I suppose, I liked the old community Barn Raising. I'll go wave a flag for someone, and they come work a time control for me. Keeps all of our disciplines working well.

Now if the Forestry Industry paid for the polymer to fabricate the news bills, does that mean it does grow on trees?

-I

On a serious note, one item for the adjenda:

If an organization is using equipment from ARRCA, we need to have that equipment returned in good repair, to it's borrowed location. Normal wear and tear is understood, but having broken flags placed back in a bag, or misplaced to be found at a later date, hinders other events at the facility.
It is understood that with the "out of service" state of the Bus for a good part of the season that there were exceptional circumstances, however attention to this matter would be greatly appreciated.

-ARRCA

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"Nos Ludos Intra Vehicula"

"That is on the floor..... in fifth..... 6500????..." -Buffum to Smith (140mph+, Rallye Charlevoix.....)

"A HUNDRED AND EIGHTY FIVE DOLLARS????"

"Great, now we're gonna get frikken' yelled at....."
"Let the record show that the evening degenerated at 2022hrs..... Duly noted..."

A few points to clear up.....

I'm opposed to the gate fee and it was not my decision to have it in place this year. Personally I would like it removed from next year but I've been informed that's not my call to make. It was put in place as a way of getting extra revenue for the event and to help pay for the gatekeepers (Walter and Debbie) who were handing out bracelets and getting everyone to sign the wavier.

I love the fact that Walter and Debbie handle the wavier, it's a big weight off my shoulders not having to constantly chase people around all day to ask them to sign the wavier. They are worth their weight in gold. I'll discuss it with the ARMS Exec to see if there is another way when I present the Time Attack budget for 2015.




As for the format, of the day, I'd like to remove Time Attack Without Passing (TAwoP) and go solely with Time Attack With Passing (TAwP). TAwoP takes up the bulk of the day. If everything runs smoothly it still takes 2-3hrs to complete, and again, that's if things run smoothly. The TAwP sessions are 20-30mins, we could run 2-3 TAwP events per day and offset the rest of the track time (and costs) with lapping.

I was thinking we could have two 30min TAwP sessions, and then a final "knockout" type session, somewhat like the current F1 style knockout qualifying. We could work out the details during the workshop.

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"The future is already here — it's just not very evenly distributed."-William Gibson
1989 Van Diemen - Formula 2000 Continental

I'd rather not see a format that results in some folks not getting to participate in all the sessions. If we were at a point that there were more competitors than available track time, then some sort of run off qualifying would make sense, but I don't believe we are there yet.

As for the w/o passing sessions, I'm of two minds. They provide an environment for new time attack competitors to determine where their 10/10 ths pace is at with minimal concern for traffic issues. Remembering, of course, that many of our participants have less than three years of competitive track driving under their belt.

They also provide a competitive warm up prior to with passing sessions for all competitors. Once we are running at capacity as far as numbers are concerned, strategies will get used during passing sessions to maximise speed versus track traffic / tire temps etc. That is the top level time attack competition, and we were not there yet this year.

On the other side there is a lot of clock time spent on what amounts to minimal laps per driver.

Given we are still introducing the series, I'd like to still see both formats as part of the day, so we can take advantage of the competitor development that I believe the without passing format brings. Finding a better balance between the formats would be good. Ideally I'd like to see two without passing sessions during the day, and perhaps not linking both formats to the same championship.

We are a small group competing in time attack, so I would think that a consensus could be found.

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Brent O'Connor
ASCC Member
MHPDC Volunteer
2007 Mustang GT
Kentville

I think the current format of TAwoP and TAwP is worth keeping.
I believe new competitors may be hesitant to attend a passing event having not warmed up to their abilities at full speed. I do not believe lapping provides the experience required. Lapping is not 10/10ths by design and learning 10/10ths in a less congested, more isolated environment is an important stepping stone to passing events and RACE.

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www.drLuc.ca

The TL:DR results of the meeting were:

We are going to shorten the TAwoP to only 2 sessions (4 laps each).
The time this will free up will be given for lapping, and the price of lapping will increase as such to help offset the cost of TA in general.

Also we are putting in a bid for the 2015 National Time Attack Championships.

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"The future is already here — it's just not very evenly distributed."-William Gibson
1989 Van Diemen - Formula 2000 Continental

This sounds like a good plan!

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Don't trail brake thru 7!