So this discussion has turned into whether or not non affiliated members of arms should be counted when tallying up the points for events. I'm hoping Ming can chime in on this.




Unfortunately I was checking my points for the regional events and the first in sackville I'm listed as having 9 points. From where I finished I believe I should have gotten 5.

Can somebody confirm this?

I'll take the extra points if no one wants to challenge this

Well, you were 7th, so 5 points would seem correct. But the 2014 rules mention only the group championships, and does not mention awarding an overall. So it doesn't matter?

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I got 1 point for 8th overall pax at Slemon. Thought it should be 3 or 4. Also, I can't remember the exact wording but I thought that non members didn't play a part in our points this year. I'll have to look that up after.

I thought the finish position of a non-member still rolls up the points for that position (i.e. they aren't pushed down to the next actual member) but could be wrong.

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Brian Jarvis
Barbarian Mutter Werks Motorsports

I asked about non-members in the other thread and this was what ming said:



Only 2 people in ARMS got more than a single point each day for the overall with the current scoring system. May want to add in some sort of nationals clause for next time because it really skews the results. You get punished for having national level competition show up to a single event, even if you outpax everyone from our region. But that is just my opinion.

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'99 BMW M3 / "Elvic"

I agree. I believe out of region participants should be dropped for all purposes in determining points assignment for regional championships, meaning simply exclude them from the equation entirely as if they did not enter.

I suggest this be a topic for the annual workshop.

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Agreed with Alan/Scott/whoever
People from out of ARMS shouldn't count in future years
Although it's only a major factor for Nationals-style event

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MMSC #12/ASP

Especially now since the class structure has changed. For example, take FSP at Slemon. Two locals, Joel and I plus a non member of ARMS. Previously, we would in class need that person to make the class to have a chance at full points, since we had a full class we couldn't bump classes. But now with the class grouping, this point is no longer needed. And I thought I read somewhere that non members don't count anymore. As for overall, using the new system, pax, they shouldn't count for sure.

Interesting, Under 12.3.2 Scoring it states: For an entrant to be considered in a class, the entrant shall be a valid full member
of an ARMS affiliated club, a basic license holder, before the close of registration for that event.
Only competitors who fulfill this requirement are counted toward class/championship group size and points allotment for that event.

I assumed they wouldn't count, and that the regional was a separate score sheet within nationals. Remove the non-arms people, and it would be as it should be.

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That seems pretty cut and dry to me. If you aren't an ARMS member, the event is scored as if you never competed.

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'99 BMW M3 / "Elvic"

I see no reason why correcting this needs to wait for the future. Common sense tells me it's not too late to change this. With non-ARMS competitors earning points, Slemon has been reduced to a lesser event than the other regionals when they should all be weighted equally. As it stands, I've been swindled at least 10 championship points for that weekend. I've missed a couple of regionals and switched classes mid season, so my season is largely a wash but I'd still like to salvage what I can. I feel sorry for those who are really going for the overall championship who also had a good weekend at the nationals. This is going to be an issue every year at Slemon, since we typically have guests from abroad.

I agree Richard, it'll be the event to miss points wise. I believe my points are messed up anyway.
Should be atleast 3 for Saturday I think. But still, whatever.

I've updated the championship points page. I believe they are correct now.

Excellent thanks. All is well in the universe once again.

Thanks Ming.

I am sorry that this is how you feel when faced with tougher competition.

As a visiting competitor i have little say in your affairs but may I suggest you consider changing your approach to scoring rather than shaking your fist at the pesky vagabonds passing through....we didn't mean to swindle...

I'm pretty sure I saw some masked bandits making off with my points in the back of a Suburu

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MMSC #12/ASP

Is there a 'like' button on here somewhere?

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evanwritescars.com

Hey thgear, I know he didn't mean it in an offensive way. The way our points used to be was we got points in class based on how we finished in our respective class. This way, we found we had to include non-members because that is what it took to make a class. However, those points weren't rewarded to non-members, but the points remained with them, as in if I finished behind say you, assuming you are not a member of ARMS, I don't get your points, I got the points that I finished in.
Now, our overall championship is based on pax. And, with the top 5 going to non-members, if the points stay with them, really, most members get 1 point each day. Logistics tell you now that the event to miss would be this one if one was going for the overall championship. Anyway, we found it not necessary to count non-members in our regional points chace now that we are basing points on pax. There are always atleast 3 people in an event to award full points. That being said, we enjoyed having every one of the "out of towners". Atleast I did. Did I meet you? Don't remember anyone named "thgear".

I think anyone complaining about receiving fewer points because of increased competition needs to have a long hard think about why they are competing.

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Charles

The regional championship is intended to be a means of comparing the drivers of the region to each other, is it not?
I'll get 1 point either way, so I have no skin in the game, but I can see why people feel the way that they do

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MMSC #12/ASP

"Swindled" as in losing points due to a mistake in the scoring process. Originally the points were not tallied according to our regional rules. Is there something wrong with the expectation that we follow the rulebook properly? Would you be happy "ThGear" if the scoring procedure suddenly changed in your region throughout a season? This turned out to be a simple error and was corrected properly, nothing more. The issue is now dead and doesn't need sensationalizing by reading more into it than there was. This has nothing to do with our visiting guests, which is probably why this is a separate thread from the rest of the CAC conversation. If you knew who you were referring to, it would be obvious that I had welcomed you guys with open arms along with the rest of the locals. This was never sour grapes against visitors. Charles knows me better than this. He shouldn't have jumped on your bandwagon.

If something didn't happen according to the rules, or if a competitor feels the rules are applied incorrectly, then protest it. Or go to a club meeting and discuss it as an agenda item. These forum based arguments never go as planned, and expressing ourselves in text is a very challenging task.

Protests are the mechanism our sport uses to resolve these types issues. We need to learn how to use them correctly, and in a timely fashion.

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Brent O'Connor
ASCC Member
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Kentville

I have always had an issue with the hard points for position type scoring. Especially in an event with many participants scattered across many classes.

The system we use in Ontario (for both the regional autocross and our time attacks) is points out of 100 correlated to the time difference of everyone slower than the fastest competior.

So if 60s pax nets you 1st place, you get 100 points. 61s nets you 98.36; 62s nets you 96.77; 70s would net you 85.71... etc

Probably the biggest benefit of this is that if the top 10 people are all less than 1 second of each other, they will all receive high points for that event, which not only eliminates the concept of a "sure winner" half way through the season (unless someone is really really good) by maintaining a very tight spread of points, but also makes such cases of when out of towners come in that it doesn't obliterate the scoring of your whole season.

and on the one hand Richard Hodge is correct that regionals are there to focus on those competitors in the region.... but on the other hand this is a sport that is fluid in it's competitor base and at the crux of it your competition is that which shows up that day. If you score poorly that day then that is your throw-away for the season...

We have the occasional people come up from the states from time to time, usually ones that do really well... but they're also no different that the occasional LOCAL drivers who are either retired or not taking the season so seriously, who come out for 1 or 2 events, completely dominate their class, and then never show up until next year. Same for high-caliber drivers who constantly co-drive different classes at all the events, they tend to throw a wrench in the system as well, but such is the nature of it.

Anyway, again I apologize if I rustled some jimmies and I know that I have little say but I do feel the need to comment just because we're all in this together in one way or another.



thgear is my CASC forum handle. My name is Serge and I was the white FRS driver, car #91. I didn't meet many of the drivers but I did have a talking to some of the organizers.

"Rustling Jimmies" has been your intention all along. We are not in this together at a regional level and our regional points rules are cut and dry. You have no say in this.

I like that way Serge, that makes sense. Would work all around. That just may be "the answer".
And as far as rustling jimmies, I was expecting you to say feathers, given my last name.
No harm done, in fact quite possibly a lot of good done. A topic for our AGM.

Isn't that how the time attacks here are scored?

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MMSC #12/ASP

Yes, it is.