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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:36 pm 
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Can someone please clarify the rules about Convertibles. I understand that they require a certified roll bar for lapping and Track days. What I would like clarification on is are "T" tops and Targa Tops considered convertibles in this instance? What about hard top convertibles?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:47 pm 
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Nick von Wahl wrote:
Can someone please clarify the rules about Convertibles. I understand that they require a certified roll bar for lapping and Track days. What I would like clarification on is are "T" tops and Targa Tops considered convertibles in this instance? What about hard top convertibles?


Rules are here http://www.asncanada.com/2013-SoloSport/ASN-2012-Lapping-Regulations.pdf

T Tops and Targa tops must be installed. Not certain if all T Tops/Targa Tops would be cleared without roll over protection. Some would be better than others in a roll over.

Hard top convertibles would still be a convertible by me, therefore roll bar required.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:20 pm 
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Ok here is what I found in the document Brent gave the link to:

19. Roll Over Protection – Roll Bars and Roll Cages’
1. Roll-over protection guidelines can be found in Appendices “C and “D” in the SoloSport - Autoslalom section of the ASN Canada FIA website. 2. Roll Over protection installations are subject to the inspection of the Chief Scrutineer. 3. Roll over protection is required for Modified category vehicles and all open wheel vehicles, and for open top vehicles (convertibles). In the case of factory installed roll hoops found in some convertibles, these hoops are not acceptable as roll over protection to meet these requirements.

20. Vehicle Requirements

.... 12. For vehicles equipped with any form of removable top such as a convertible soft tip, sunroof, T-top, etc; such tops must be secured and locked in their normal closed position.

I checked appendix C and D as well but that document describes the specs for roll bars and cages

So I know if I have a Targa (or a soft top convertible) I need my roof closed: but Section 19 is still not clear to me, is a Targa top an open top vehicle?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:36 pm 
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From what you just pasted:

Quote:
open top vehicles (convertibles)


19.1 specifically requires rollover protection for convertibles. 20.12 mentions that any vehicle with a removable roof section (whether convertible, targa, etc) must have the roof installed, which is a separate stipulation from 19.1. I would take that as targa/t-tops being allowed without rollover protection.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:01 pm 
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I would also follow Scott's logic as well. You should drop Jason a note to get a clarification if it will effect the car you will buy. He is the Performance Solo director this year.

The question intrigued me, so I went digging. Seems SCCA has changed their mind on this from 2013 to 2014.

The 2014 SCCA Performance Driving Experience rules say this: http://www.scca.com/assets/2014_PDX_CT%20Driver_Rules_final.pdf

ELIGIBILITY OF VEHICLES: All vehicles must provide factory original (or better) seats that
are securely mounted, seatbelts (SFI or FIA rated are recommended), and roll over protection for
both driver and in‐car instructor (if used).
 Hardtop and Targa top vehicles are allowable.
 Convertible vehicles operating with the factory roll over protection system are allowable.
Other convertibles should have either a factory hardtop or a 4 point roll bar. If a roll bar is
used, it should meet the roll bar requirements found in the TT/HC Driver Information TTR.
 Vehicles that are in compliance with road race, solo, rally or time trial rules are allowable.
 Drivers of open top vehicles should use arm restraints or run with the top up.

The 2013 Rules were different and more complicated:

11.1. PDX (LEVEL 1)
At PDX (Level 1) events, any car that is street legal will NOT require a roll bar/roll cage, except for Convertibles and Targa* top automobiles. These cars must have either a roll bar meeting the requirements of section 11 of the TTR, a factory roll bar/roll over protection , or a factory hard top using the factory mounting hardware and mounting points. Owners of cars equipped with factory roll bars/roll over protection must present documentation stating that the device is a roll bar or roll over protection at the time of vehicle tech inspection (a factory issued Owner’s or Shop Manual will fulfill this requirement.) Targa* top (and T-top) automobiles may forgo the roll bar requirement under the condition that the Targa bar meets the height requirements set forth in 11.1.1.B. For the purposes of this determination only, street legal will be defined as a car which meets local requirements for inspection (if applicable) and the car in question must possess CURRENT, VALID registration. If this street legal requirement is not met, then the roll bar requirement as stated in this section shall apply.
*Targa top, targa for short, is a semi-convertible car body style with a removable roof section and a full width fixed B-pillar and roof section. The rear window can be fixed or removable.
11.1.1. Basic Design Considerations
The basic purpose of the roll bar is to protect the driver in case the vehicle rolls over or runs into an obstacle such as a guardrail or catch fence. This purpose should not be forgotten.
The top of the roll bar shall not be below the top of the driver’s helmet when the driver is in normal driving position, and shall not be more than six inches behind the driver. It is strongly suggested that the roll bar extend at least three inches above the driver’s helmet. In case of two driver cars, both drivers must be within the roll bar height requirement, however only one driver must be within six inches of the roll bar. In a closed car equipped with a roll bar/cage, it must be as close as possible to the interior top of the car.

I throw these out as they are often what the ASN National Solo Committee will use as guidance when issuing Cdn rulesets.

Brent

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:56 pm 
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Folks, I don't want to distract from the thread but I have a question that seems to fit here. I'm thinking about putting a roll bar into my Miata (a real bar - not one of those style bars). There's no track here on the island but I figured I would put on in that would be acceptable should I ever find myself at AMP. A few of us NL folks are thinking about going to Slemon and maybe hoping for some lapping on the way home.

Ideally I'd like to install a bar that doesn't block the rear view mirror with diagonals. Found the Harddog M2 Sport (http://www.bethania-garage.com/m2_sport.htm), which seems to fit the bill, but is made with 1.5 inch tubing. I looked at the regs - it seems that for a car > 2000 lb with driver the tubes would have to be 1.75. Have I read that correctly? Would this bar be sufficient to run at a lapping day at AMP assuming I had a lapping license?

Thanks,
Andrew


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:01 pm 
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Brent O'Connor wrote:
Nick von Wahl wrote:
Can someone please clarify the rules about Convertibles. I understand that they require a certified roll bar for lapping and Track days. What I would like clarification on is are "T" tops and Targa Tops considered convertibles in this instance? What about hard top convertibles?


Rules are here http://www.asncanada.com/2013-SoloSport/ASN-2012-Lapping-Regulations.pdf

T Tops and Targa tops must be installed. Not certain if all T Tops/Targa Tops would be cleared without roll over protection. Some would be better than others in a roll over.

Hard top convertibles would still be a convertible by me, therefore roll bar required.



Brent is correct.
T Tops and Targa tops are acceptable but must have their roof panels installed.
Hard top convertibles are just as stated, convertibles. They must have a proper roll bar installed.




Andrew, yes if your Miata is over 2,000lbs it will require 1.75 tubing as per the regulations, even for a lapping day.
http://www.asncanada.com/2013-SoloSport ... llCage.pdf

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:06 pm 
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Andrew Menchions wrote:
Folks, I don't want to distract from the thread but I have a question that seems to fit here. I'm thinking about putting a roll bar into my Miata (a real bar - not one of those style bars). There's no track here on the island but I figured I would put on in that would be acceptable should I ever find myself at AMP. A few of us NL folks are thinking about going to Slemon and maybe hoping for some lapping on the way home.

Ideally I'd like to install a bar that doesn't block the rear view mirror with diagonals. Found the Harddog M2 Sport (http://www.bethania-garage.com/m2_sport.htm), which seems to fit the bill, but is made with 1.5 inch tubing. I looked at the regs - it seems that for a car > 2000 lb with driver the tubes would have to be 1.75. Have I read that correctly? Would this bar be sufficient to run at a lapping day at AMP assuming I had a lapping license?

Thanks,
Andrew


I will have to look, but for a scca/arms/cars legal roadrace cage, cars under 2500LBS must have DOM tubing 1.5 OD with a .095 wall. I highly dought lapping would require more. Check autopower cages. There IT/spec miata class legal and very nice.

Nevermind. Just notice jason anwsered that. You do need 1.75 by .120 wall

I find that really weird that a lapping car requires larger tubing then a racecar. So by saying this a Spec Miata can not lap? Its tubing is not the correct size? Sorry i may have missed a hole bunch reading but this is what i am reading. lol
Ill look after work to see what rule you are reading.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:33 pm 
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Joel, keep in mind there are different weight/tube restrictions based on rollbar vs rollcage.

Rollbar - Cars over 2,000 lbs. 5.72 cm X 0.30 cm (1.75" X .120")
Rollcage - Cars under 2500 lbs 3.81 cm X 0.24 cm (1.500" X .095") or 3.49 cm X 0.30 cm (1.375" X .120")


EDIT:

The above is taken out of the ASN Appendix C & D, as referenced by the ASN Lapping Regulations.

Below is taken out of the ASN Time Attack Regulations. It appears the material the rollbar is made from determines the thickness needed.

Quote:
1.3.10 The minimum size seamless of DOM tubing to be used in roll bar construction should be
determined from the following table (all dimensions in inches):

Curb Weight: Mild Steel / Alloy Steel
Up to 1500 lbs: 1.375” x 0.095” / 1.375” x 0.080”
1501-2500 lbs: 1.500” x 0.095” / 1.375” x 0.095”
Over 2500 lbs: 1.500” x 0.120” / 1.500” x 0.095”

ERW tubing may be used in the following sizes only.
Curb Weight ERW Tubing
Up to 2500 lbs 1.500” x 0.120”
Over 2500 lbs 1.750” x 0.120”.



So it looks like (no surprise) that there are discrepancies in ASN Regulations between AutoSlalom, Lapping and Time Attack.
It would appear that AutoSlalom has the most stringent rules regarding rollbars, which really doesn't make sense.

However this was just a quick read inbetween shots of Buckleys (home sick) so if someone with a clearer head wants to doublecheck please feel free.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:30 pm 
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Off topic - One thing I note is the SCCA requirement for Roll Bars (not cage) for what we call Time Attack. This isn't currently part of our rule set, but where they (SCCA) are, we usually go.

IMHO Likely time to look at upgrading roll over protection for those of us who are serious about the Time Attack series.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:53 pm 
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Ok here's a cut paste of the rules regarding rollbars:

ASN Lapping Regulations:
http://asncanada.com/2013-SoloSport/ASN ... ations.pdf

Quote:
19. Roll Over Protection – Roll Bars and Roll Cages’
1. Roll-over protection guidelines can be found in Appendices “C and “D” in the
SoloSport - Autoslalom
section of the ASN Canada FIA website.
2. Roll Over protection installations are subject to the inspection of the Chief Scrutineer.
3. Roll over protection is required for Modified category vehicles and all open wheel
vehicles, and for open top vehicles (convertibles). In the case of factory installed roll
hoops found in some convertibles, these hoops are not acceptable as roll over
protection to meet these requirements.


So now we goto Appendix C & D

ASN Canada FIA Appendix C & D
http://www.asncanada.com/2013-SoloSport ... llCage.pdf

Quote:
2. CONSTRUCTION MATERIALS
The main hoop and primary bracing should be constructed from round, mild steel, ERW or DOM type tubing.
Chrome-moly tubing such as 4130, may be used but is not recommended.
Chrome moly welding most often requires pre-heating, compatible filler wire to avoid brittleness in the
welds, post-weld cooling and stress-relieving.
Aluminum and composite materials are prohibited construction materials for roll bar structures.
All bars must have a 0.476 cm (.1875") diameter inspection hole drilled in each main hoop.
Minimum tubing sizes are as follows with vehicle weights including competitor:
Up to 2,000 lbs. 3.81 cm X 0.30 cm (1.50" X .120")
Over 2,000 lbs. 5.72 cm X 0.30 cm (1.75" X .120")


But just for fun lets compare the Time Attack Regulations (which in my opinion should be used by Lapping)

ASN Time Attack Regulations:
http://asncanada.com/2013-SoloSport/ASN ... ations.pdf
Quote:
1.3.10 The minimum size seamless of DOM tubing to be used in roll bar construction should be
determined from the following table (all dimensions in inches):

Curb Weight: Mild Steel / Alloy Steel
Up to 1500 lbs: 1.375” x 0.095” / 1.375” x 0.080”
1501-2500 lbs: 1.500” x 0.095” / 1.375” x 0.095”
Over 2500 lbs: 1.500” x 0.120” / 1.500” x 0.095”

ERW tubing may be used in the following sizes only.
Curb Weight ERW Tubing
Up to 2500 lbs 1.500” x 0.120”
Over 2500 lbs 1.750” x 0.120”.



So it appears (at least in the Time Attack Regulations) that the type of material determines the thickness needed for the rollbar.
This is not noted in the Lapping and/or AutoSlalom regulations as they simply state the list of approved materials and one thickness. I'm not sure why the Lapping Regulations don't reference the Time Attack Regulations, and/or why the AutoSlalom Regulations seem to be more stringent. My guess is an oversight by ASN.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:49 pm 
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Dave Hull wrote:
Andrew Menchions wrote:
Found the Harddog M2 Sport (http://www.bethania-garage.com/m2_sport.htm), which seems to fit the bill, but is made with 1.5 inch tubing. I looked at the regs - it seems that for a car > 2000 lb with driver the tubes would have to be 1.75.


Hi Andrew,
This is what I currently have in my y2k Miata http://www.bethania-garage.com/m2hardcore_hardtop.htm with the double diagonals. This meets our ASN Lapping & Time Attack Regulations.


Now, with that bar, do you also need a hardtop, or is an open top legit?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:08 pm 
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Jason Smith wrote:
Ok here's a cut paste of the rules regarding rollbars:

ASN Lapping Regulations:
http://asncanada.com/2013-SoloSport/ASN ... ations.pdf

Quote:
19. Roll Over Protection – Roll Bars and Roll Cages’
1. Roll-over protection guidelines can be found in Appendices “C and “D” in the
SoloSport - Autoslalom
section of the ASN Canada FIA website.
2. Roll Over protection installations are subject to the inspection of the Chief Scrutineer.
3. Roll over protection is required for Modified category vehicles and all open wheel
vehicles, and for open top vehicles (convertibles). In the case of factory installed roll
hoops found in some convertibles, these hoops are not acceptable as roll over
protection to meet these requirements.


So now we goto Appendix C & D

ASN Canada FIA Appendix C & D
http://www.asncanada.com/2013-SoloSport ... llCage.pdf

Quote:
2. CONSTRUCTION MATERIALS
The main hoop and primary bracing should be constructed from round, mild steel, ERW or DOM type tubing.
Chrome-moly tubing such as 4130, may be used but is not recommended.
Chrome moly welding most often requires pre-heating, compatible filler wire to avoid brittleness in the
welds, post-weld cooling and stress-relieving.
Aluminum and composite materials are prohibited construction materials for roll bar structures.
All bars must have a 0.476 cm (.1875") diameter inspection hole drilled in each main hoop.
Minimum tubing sizes are as follows with vehicle weights including competitor:
Up to 2,000 lbs. 3.81 cm X 0.30 cm (1.50" X .120")
Over 2,000 lbs. 5.72 cm X 0.30 cm (1.75" X .120")


But just for fun lets compare the Time Attack Regulations (which in my opinion should be used by Lapping)

ASN Time Attack Regulations:
http://asncanada.com/2013-SoloSport/ASN ... ations.pdf
Quote:
1.3.10 The minimum size seamless of DOM tubing to be used in roll bar construction should be
determined from the following table (all dimensions in inches):

Curb Weight: Mild Steel / Alloy Steel
Up to 1500 lbs: 1.375” x 0.095” / 1.375” x 0.080”
1501-2500 lbs: 1.500” x 0.095” / 1.375” x 0.095”
Over 2500 lbs: 1.500” x 0.120” / 1.500” x 0.095”

ERW tubing may be used in the following sizes only.
Curb Weight ERW Tubing
Up to 2500 lbs 1.500” x 0.120”
Over 2500 lbs 1.750” x 0.120”.



So it appears (at least in the Time Attack Regulations) that the type of material determines the thickness needed for the rollbar.
This is not noted in the Lapping and/or AutoSlalom regulations as they simply state the list of approved materials and one thickness. I'm not sure why the Lapping Regulations don't reference the Time Attack Regulations, and/or why the AutoSlalom Regulations seem to be more stringent. My guess is an oversight by ASN.


I am guessing 3 different people did the rules. Dave would this be something that should be brought to ASNs attention. A Time attack legal rollbar should be okay for lapping.

Also ive been searching alot of different clubs rules for cages and the Autoslalom cage rules seem the stiffest. Lol. you can build a pretty shaddy cage under the ASN ruleset and the SCCA.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:31 pm 
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Joel N wrote:

...

I am guessing 3 different people did the rules. Dave would this be something that should be brought to ASNs attention. A Time attack legal rollbar should be okay for lapping.

Also ive been searching alot of different clubs rules for cages and the Autoslalom cage rules seem the stiffest. Lol. you can build a pretty shaddy cage under the ASN ruleset and the SCCA.


Where are the ASN regs for cages for road race?

I've seen Autoslalom and Time attack, as well as CARS Rally, and FIA Rally ( http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/regulation/file/259%20%282014%29x.pdf ), but can't find national road race rules.

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Last edited by Brent O'Connor on Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:33 pm 
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ASN doesn't do regulations for Road Racing. They leave that up to the regions.
But that's a topic for another thread.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:39 pm 
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Jason Smith wrote:
ASN doesn't do regulations for Road Racing. They leave that up to the regions.
But that's a topic for another thread.


I mention it not as a race topic, but to determine if the performance solo regs (Lapping and Time Attack) are in harmony with Race. It is off topic though for Nick's question.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:02 am 
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Brent O'Connor wrote:
Joel N wrote:

...

I am guessing 3 different people did the rules. Dave would this be something that should be brought to ASNs attention. A Time attack legal rollbar should be okay for lapping.

Also ive been searching alot of different clubs rules for cages and the Autoslalom cage rules seem the stiffest. Lol. you can build a pretty shaddy cage under the ASN ruleset and the SCCA.


Where are the ASN regs for cages for road race?

I've seen Autoslalom and Time attack, as well as CARS Rally, and FIA Rally ( http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/regulation/file/259%20%282014%29x.pdf ), but can't find national road race rules.


My bad. That should have said ARMS not ASN. Sorry.
Dave Hull wrote:
Joel N wrote:
I am guessing 3 different people did the rules. Dave would this be something that should be brought to ASNs attention.


Joel, I have already sent an email to the National SoloSport Committee about this. As part of streamlining the rule sets so that common rules are the same across all of SoloSport it appears as though Time Attack did not get updated.

Brian, convertible or removable hard top must be up / installed and locked in position.

Thanks Dave. I dont think any of the current time attack cars require rollbars or carges due to class. Apart from the convertables.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:17 pm 
Dave Hull wrote:
Brian, convertible or removable hard top must be up / installed and locked in position.


So, a Spec Miata, the most popular road racing car in North America, which can be run with or without roof, is not legal?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:27 pm 
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David E. wrote:
Dave Hull wrote:
Brian, convertible or removable hard top must be up / installed and locked in position.


So, a Spec Miata, the most popular road racing car in North America, which can be run with or without roof, is not legal?


Please bare in mind there is a big difference between a rollbar and a rollcage. I believe Dave is quoting the rule and it pertains to a rollbar. Spec Miata's have a rollcage.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:27 pm 
Jason Smith wrote:
Please bare in mind there is a big difference between a rollbar and a rollcage. I believe Dave is quoting the rule and it pertains to a rollbar. Spec Miata's have a rollcage.


My apologies. I think you are correct and I misread Brian's comment that Dave was referencing.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:04 pm 
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Wow, I set this one off track ;) Dave - yours is the second recommendation for that same bar. My concern with it is loss of rearward visibility esp in the rearview mirror with the diagonal tubes - what did you find?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:14 pm 
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Dave Hull wrote:
Hi Andrew,
From my understanding you will loose more visibility with the single diagonal than the double. It also depends on how high you sit in the car. With my factory seat all the way back on the sliders and the mirror adjusted as low as I could get it I lost about 1/2 to 3/4 of my view out of the mirror. With the race seat bolted to the floor I have just about full view.

As for looking over your shoulder I really don't see much of a difference.


Thanks Dave - with no local Miatas running roll bars (only a few with style bars), I have to rely on the experience of others. Appreciate your experience.


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