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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:34 pm 
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CharlesK wrote:
The SCCA classing & prep changes are proposed by the SCCA Solo Events Board (working with Advisory Comittees for each class category), members provide feedback, and then the SEB submits the changes to the SCCA executive who (usually) approve.

Rick Ruth (not the SCCA) creates the PAX/RTP index http://www.autox4u.com/resources/pax-index-2/

There are enough "Road Tire" class entrants that Rick will likely have a PAX number ready when these SCCA class changes take effect.


Took this from the heading on that site
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Thus, most regions base their overall driver championship on PAX performance whereas class championships are based on raw times.


I've read that you can typically accommodate street tires in PAX by multiplying by .975 (or .98, depending where you read) versus the R-compound competitors. That was stated by Rick Ruth at some point, so I imagine he'll have things well in hand should new PAX factors be required

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:16 pm 
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I've read that you can typically accommodate street tires in PAX by multiplying by .975 (or .98, depending where you read) versus the R-compound competitors. That was stated by Rick Ruth at some point, so I imagine he'll have things well in hand should new PAX factors be required

Yes, SCCA uses the 0.975 for street tire factor for their Match Tour events. See page 4: http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/assets/2013%20Match%20Tour%20Rules%20updated%207-13.pdf

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:21 pm 
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Lucian J wrote:
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I've read that you can typically accommodate street tires in PAX by multiplying by .975 (or .98, depending where you read) versus the R-compound competitors. That was stated by Rick Ruth at some point, so I imagine he'll have things well in hand should new PAX factors be required

Yes, SCCA uses the 0.975 for street tire factor for their Match Tour events. See page 4: http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/assets/2013%20Match%20Tour%20Rules%20updated%207-13.pdf


Huh, my guess of 0.78 (based on my times both ways) was pretty close. 8)

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:50 pm 
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If SM does seperate into one group I'd be willing to make it a straight pax factor of .867(sm) to make it a little easier on the SSM guys. Seeing as how the times between us are already close, and anyone could win at any time.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:54 pm 
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Here's the new proposal
Pretty similar to before

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Instead of awarding trophies to class winners, they would be awarded to prep level winners to increase the competitiveness of our sport.

If approved, these prep level trophies would replace class trophies completely. This would run concurrently with the overall championship, as the class trophies always have.

The categories proposed are:

Street Tire: Including all "Street" classes (formerly called "Stock"), and "Street Touring" classes (and RT classes, if/when added)
Race Tire: Including "Street Prepared" and "Street Modified" classes
Unlimited: Including all "Prepared" and "Modified" classes

Cars will keep their existing classes and PAX factors as defined under the current SCCA rule set.

For example:

Car A: STS class
Car B: STR class

Car A & B will both compete for the "Street Tire" trophy, using their existing PAX values. Car B must beat Car A on PAX, not RAW to take the position in the "Street Tire" standings.

The positive side here is that we take advantage of the robust and painstakingly researched SCCA rule set, whilst greatly increasing the level of competition for each trophy, eliminating the 'gimme' trophies awarded for merely showing up in an unpopulated class. No one has to change cars, car prep or classing and we retain logical trophies i.e: Street Tire Champion, Race Tire Champion etc.

The disadvantage is that all trophies will be competed for on PAX, instead of only RAW competition in each class. My personal opinion is that we are small enough in number that real, intense in class competition is, unfortunately, very rare as things are.

-Bumping to your car's appropriate class at a higher prep-level is permitted, whether or not your car's current prep-level is full. In this circumstance you will use the PAX factor of whatever class you bump into. (Really only advisable if you plan to bump for every event, all season)

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Last edited by Mike Pettipas on Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:27 am 
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I wouldn't use the phrase "open tire". You can't use non-DOT slicks in SP or SM.

Ben B wrote:
If SM does seperate into one group I'd be willing to make it a straight pax factor of .867(sm) to make it a little easier on the SSM guys. Seeing as how the times between us are already close, and anyone could win at any time.


I like that. SM seems like a good spot for people who want to compete on raw times within a class without fretting over what mods you have. And the region has demonstrated that it's a popular class, but I guess we'll find out where everyone goes next year.


Also, Oct fasttrack has been posted. Looks like they are recommending the street classes to the BOD for implementation 1-1-2014.

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/ass ... t-solo.pdf

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:27 pm 
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Scott Montgomerie wrote:
I wouldn't use the phrase "open tire". You can't use non-DOT slicks in SP or SM.

Good point

Scott Montgomerie wrote:
Ben B wrote:
If SM does seperate into one group I'd be willing to make it a straight pax factor of .867(sm) to make it a little easier on the SSM guys. Seeing as how the times between us are already close, and anyone could win at any time.


I like that. SM seems like a good spot for people who want to compete on raw times within a class without fretting over what mods you have. And the region has demonstrated that it's a popular class, but I guess we'll find out where everyone goes next year.


The more competitors that are able to attend the competition meeting, the more likely that the little details can be implemented as well
That said, I'm really hoping to get the big change completed this year, so I don't want to over complicate things (and changing the SSM PAX might be seen as self-serving if I suggest it :P ). Then next year we can discuss the details based on how 2014 goes. It's quite possible that we end up with only a couple competitors in SM and none in SSM in 2014.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:51 pm 
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Personally, I think getting this discussion going now is great, lots of time to discuss and work things out. Then come AGM time most arguments are over. And everyone is on the same page. Whether they agree is another story. But the time consuming part is done. Maybe the race group can do this too?
Sorry, continue on!


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:02 pm 
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How about a spec auto-x series? Truly the only way to make EVERYthing equal.

We will call it "The Drivers Series":
- Cars are identically prepped and tired.
- No changing tires at the event
- no maintenance
- no buying tires every season (or during the season)
- no worrying about your DD being broken down and not getting to work
- No worry about breaking the car and not getting to finish the event as there will be a spare car
- Pay to do the whole season for people who are regulars or pay at the events for newbs/occasionals.


I will put my money where my mouth is:
- I will even buy the 2 cars myself and bring them to the events if we have enough people that would register:

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:06 pm 
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Luc Sipkema wrote:
How about a spec auto-x series? Truly the only way to make EVERYthing equal.

We will call it "The Drivers Series":
- Cars are identically prepped and tired.
- No changing tires at the event
- no maintenance
- no buying tires every season (or during the season)
- no worrying about your DD being broken down and not getting to work
- No worry about breaking the car and not getting to finish the event as there will be a spare car
- Pay to do the whole season for people who are regulars or pay at the events for newbs/occasionals.


I will put my money where my mouth is:
- I will even buy the 2 cars myself and bring them to the events if we have enough people that would register:


The "Spec AutoSlalom Series" SAS, I like it.
How much?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:18 pm 
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Jason Smith wrote:
Luc Sipkema wrote:
How about a spec auto-x series? Truly the only way to make EVERYthing equal.

We will call it "The Drivers Series":
- Cars are identically prepped and tired.
- No changing tires at the event
- no maintenance
- no buying tires every season (or during the season)
- no worrying about your DD being broken down and not getting to work
- No worry about breaking the car and not getting to finish the event as there will be a spare car
- Pay to do the whole season for people who are regulars or pay at the events for newbs/occasionals.


I will put my money where my mouth is:
- I will even buy the 2 cars myself and bring them to the events if we have enough people that would register:


The "Spec AutoSlalom Series" SAS, I like it.
How much?



I guess that depends on what people want for cars; 2 civics is going to be much cheaper than 2 S2000's. If there were 8-10 guys interested we could decide on a car and appropriate cost and then I'll buy them.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:21 pm 
Spec Autocross Series would be darned close to letting Kart's run. (I will now prepare to be banned for daring breath the Kart word.)


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:26 pm 
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NO!

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:41 pm 
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David E. wrote:
Spec Autocross Series would be darned close to letting Kart's run. (I will now prepare to be banned for daring breath the Kart word.)


I don't understand this? What does it have to do with karting?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:15 pm 
Within set classes, Kart's are built to a Spec. Allow Kart's. Have Spec class.
(Assuming people are running the same class of Kart. The "spec" aspect of things is already taken care of. Cheap to buy, run and transport too.)


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:01 pm 
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David E. wrote:
Within set classes, Kart's are built to a Spec. Allow Kart's. Have Spec class.
(Assuming people are running the same class of Kart. The "spec" aspect of things is already taken care of. Cheap to buy, run and transport too.)


So? This is circumstantial/coincidental. I think the issue with Karting is that we are NOT a karting club.

I have a ball hockey club that meets at the gym. You and some friends want to join us to set up a Dungeons & Dragons table on our game nights. We both happen to have two testicles but that has no bearing on the fact I have a hockey club and you have a D&D club.


Joel N wrote:
NO!


No to Spec series? or Karting?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:38 pm 
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A spec series sounds great in theory, but I don't think it would work
The only way it *could* work (and the car wouldn't be constantly broken) would be if we somehow leased an FRS and collectively beat on it, using the free Scion monies to pay for repairs/tires/lease payments
But then if Scion changes/cancels the program, we're screwed :orglaugh:
Not a plunge I'd be looking to take

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:05 pm 
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Anyone interested in raising the max # of competitors in a car to at least 3?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:50 pm 
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Jason Smith wrote:
The "Spec AutoSlalom Series" SAS, I like it.



Spec
Auto
Slalom
Series

SASS, even better! :P :orglaugh: :orglaugh: :orglaugh:


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:15 pm 
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Jason Smith wrote:
Anyone interested in raising the max # of competitors in a car to at least 3?


There are 2 potential issues with that:
- Gaining a performance advantage due to keeping the tires hot
- Gaining a points advantage by bringing 2 sh!t drivers to fill an otherwise empty class, thus getting 20 points at every event


If classes get grouped, the second potential issue is fixed, but the first could still be a problem

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:31 pm 
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That's why there is and will be a 5min rule.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:07 am 
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Jason Smith wrote:
Anyone interested in raising the max # of competitors in a car to at least 3?

No. There are reasons for only allowing 2 competitors in a car. Mike mentioned one of them. Another is getting all of them properly spaced in a run group. It's a logistical nightmare and as an organizer I don't want to deal with it. National regulations also state the maximum number of drivers is 2 so you won't be able to run 3 cars at Slemon even if it's changed in the region. I do travel to events in other regions and do national level events so I prefer to stay in-line with the National regs. There's a benefit to having a consistent set of regs. I've handled a car in an event with 3 drivers a few times. It complicates things. You get 2 or 3 cars like that, it's happened at Slemon before, and it's f#$*ing hard. You allow everyone to do it and it will be almost impossible to come up with a run order. I won't organize a regional event if this is allowed, you will have to find someone else to do it.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:55 am 
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I bought my car because I want to drive it and work on it. I honestly have no interest in any sort of spec series.

Also, karts are fully classed under SCCA rules, is there a local rule preventing someone from using one?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:59 am 
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Gatta agree with ming. Also the performance advatage would be to great for other competitors in the class.. If you were on R-comps. I found a big difference when someone runs my car with me. Makes it stick a bit better. If there were 2 people running with me it would most likly be even better.

I also agree with scott. I like my civic. I like the cost of running my civic. works pretty good.
And yes scott. There a few more safty restriction involved with carts. I think the main reason was how much more room they need from obsicals.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:16 am 
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I like seeing various kind of cars in various classes competing on a course. I think having a limited spec series would be less appealing.
I agree with Scott that we like to enjoy our cars including their limitations on an autoslalom course. But offering to rent events in prepared (no classification pun intended) cars may get more people to show up, although I guess you don't necessarily want a new person in a r-comp prepped car.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:24 am 
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Jason Smith wrote:
Anyone interested in raising the max # of competitors in a car to at least 3?


I would have no problem with that BUT...each time the vehicle runs the course ALL three of the drivers would need to be IN the car for that run to count. :? :? :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:52 am 
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For the cars with +2 drivers, allow them to split run groups (if everyone in that class is ok with that). We should be allowing shared cars to split run groups (if everyone in the class is ok with it).
We have cars with 3 drivers occasionally in the region, the only difference now is someone is forced into another class, and that's usually the driver with the least experience.

Just my 3 cents....

And Kevin, you'd want 4 for proper weight distribution. ;)
(Just kidding that's a safety rule from ASN which we can't change)

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:49 am 
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Ok. If you want to compare drivers to drivers, for fun, select a few people in different cars (fwd, rwd, awd) and get the three different drivers to compete in each car, combine all best times (your best in each car) and use that. Driver vs driver vs driver.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:54 am 
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Or just all join the iRacing ARMS league. ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:01 am 
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I think we're getting a little off-topic from Mike's original discussion regarding the grouping of classes.

Still good discussion.... I'll make a thread for SoloSport Workshop Topics.
EDIT: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12574

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