Seems like we have some good discussion going on Rally X rules. The current rule set is likely closing on 10 years old with some slight modification over the years.

We have had a lot of new folks come out in the past few years, and that is fantastic. With that addition, competition levels, car counts per class, and preparation levels have changed. It is likely time we have a discussion of those with a vested interest.

Let's keep it civil, and lets not get too specific. There are forms of motorsport where the rule book is in volumes. Most people involved in Rally do not wish to see that. The simplicity of it is one of it's endearing qualities.

I would ask Mr Wayne Pitts, BAC Competition Director to keep this on track.

So.... where do we go with car prep for next year?

_________________
"Nos Ludos Intra Vehicula"

"That is on the floor..... in fifth..... 6500????..." -Buffum to Smith (140mph+, Rallye Charlevoix.....)

"A HUNDRED AND EIGHTY FIVE DOLLARS????"

"Great, now we're gonna get frikken' yelled at....."
"Let the record show that the evening degenerated at 2022hrs..... Duly noted..."

I agree with the sentiment that Rallycross rules should be kept simple and clear. It is definitely the charm of the series.

As previously stated the only real change I would want to see is the creation of separate 2wd and 4wd Stock/Prepared classes. Even a prepared 2WD car cannot usually match a similarly invested 4WD/AWD car, so before we start worrying about what is considered Prepared or not, I would think this small change would have a knock down effect to sort people out.

I'm going to add some history of why some of the rules ended up in the rule set. I invite those who sat through those same long meetings to chime in with what I've forgotten, or have gotten incorrect. This is simply information to those more recent to the events. The rules may be due to change on some items, others, the old logic may still apply:

1) Tires are free: Some people were spending a lot of money in cut sidewalls per event. It was felt at the time that take-off gravels were a better budget item. You could flog a set a whole season with less risk. Studded used to be classed by itself. This led to 6 or 8 classes, for non studs, studs, drive line etc. Thus, allow them.

2) Drive line. (RWD/FWD) Normally 2 wheel drive in rally is classed as such. Given that most of the BAC series is winter, one would expect snow or ice. The theory (with some evidence behind it) was that RWD had a disadvantage on snow and ice vs FWD. Thus, RWD and FWD were separate.

3) Prepared. We needed to draw a line and put something in ink. Stock was stock, and if you monkey with anything, you are prepared. (Obviously we've been discussing this.)

Out of time for now, more later.

_________________
"Nos Ludos Intra Vehicula"

"That is on the floor..... in fifth..... 6500????..." -Buffum to Smith (140mph+, Rallye Charlevoix.....)

"A HUNDRED AND EIGHTY FIVE DOLLARS????"

"Great, now we're gonna get frikken' yelled at....."
"Let the record show that the evening degenerated at 2022hrs..... Duly noted..."

But then, you have an extra class, for one person.

Maybe. We're running in to sessions with over 50 participants, and assuming some of them have cars that last more than a season, who's to say there won't be more?

Ok. I don't have much say as I'm not a regular in the series.

This, but really i don't mind it either way. I enjoy the small number of classes we have. it works when there's 10 people and when there's 65, and makes sense to newcomers. I'd love for local autocrossing to have similar classing.

I also support having forgiving classing rules. The majority of modifications any of us are making at this level realistically won't do much, as somebody has already brought up. There may need to be some clarifications (removing the 'etc...' in the prepared classing section of the website). Ultimately, rallycross is all about learning entry-level car control, having rigid classing rules may prove to only discourage new people from returning.

Other ideas:
- No classing
- Two classes, MVI'd and non MVI'd
- SPEC YARIS (must run 40$ Hankook RC01's)

Mvi vs non mvi.
This is a change I can get behind.
And as a quick note. There was one guy who was classed as fwd when he should have been in prepped. For the same reason most of us end up in prepped. Stripped interior. Dave's not alone any more.

_________________
Here at Whynot Performance.

Performance Rally cars have to be mvi'd to compete. This would put them in with most street cars.

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"On snow or ice or gravel, we all know that a car will not stop or steer. And yet rally cars do both of these things. That means the whole thing is sorcery, and the people who do the driving must be witches." - Jermy Clarkson.

Brian, you have as much say as anyone else. Not to mention you have tons of experience in many different racing disciplines. Please don't hesitate ( or any one else for that matter)to give your suggestions or ideas.

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"On snow or ice or gravel, we all know that a car will not stop or steer. And yet rally cars do both of these things. That means the whole thing is sorcery, and the people who do the driving must be witches." - Jermy Clarkson.

+1 SPEC YARIS.

Sorry, off track but I couldn't help myself.

_________________
"Nos Ludos Intra Vehicula"

"That is on the floor..... in fifth..... 6500????..." -Buffum to Smith (140mph+, Rallye Charlevoix.....)

"A HUNDRED AND EIGHTY FIVE DOLLARS????"

"Great, now we're gonna get frikken' yelled at....."
"Let the record show that the evening degenerated at 2022hrs..... Duly noted..."

Meg and I have been having a lot of discussion about this as of late and decided that we would be happy to effectively throw away the prepared class.

Instead, I'd like to see a Novice & Experienced class for 2WD and 4/AWD (Much like for navigational rallies and modifications would be irrelevant). It is quite discouraging for someone new to attend an event, show a fair amount of technical driving promise and end up at the bottom of the results page simply because they are battling with 10 year veterans. If you don't think you're good at this "entry-level rally", what would make you want to build a car for "performance" events??
Obviously some discussion would be needed as to what determines a novice, my suggestion would be 3 years and at least 9 events before being considered experienced.

I also believe that the current points structure could use some work with such a high number of attendants lately. 1 point for every position from 10th and up doesn't really cut it for 2WD guys being beat up by Subarus. (I only say this because I don't believe anyone really gives a damn about the "class points" seeing as there is so much discussion regarding what the classes actually are and should be.)

Also, +2 for the Spec Yaris class A few of us tried with the Hatchback turds, but it never seemed to take off, lol!

I think it's pretty rare for someone to come out and do well in rallycross without any other background in motorsports. Devon has caught on well, along with Greg and Andrew Sweet, and Patricia! But they all have motorsports background. Finishing well takes experience, and the only way to get experience, is by competing. But, I agree about the point structure. Something to look at for next season.

I like the idea, but racing is a money game at the end of it all. A decent driver with next to no experience but a built car has the same shot as a great driver in a beater.
Skill can make up for a lot, but its the cars doing the real work.

_________________
Here at Whynot Performance.

Going on with what Shayne said, I see what you're going for with the 'Novice/Experienced' but I can't agree it's a way forward for rallycross. The reason for this is: In TSD rallies, experience is the only variable that matters, car performance doesn't really factor in when it comes to arriving at a checkpoint at your allotted time.

On the flip side, if you take the same person with the same amount of experience and place them in a 2wd and AWD cars, they will generally go faster in the AWD car assuming it is similarly equipped with tires. It's simple science, AWD cars generally have more traction in rough terrain that 2WD cars, and when you start adding in modifications then it can make bigger differences. Even someone who's relatively inexperienced in a Subaru can generally beat someone like me who has done 8 or so events in a Volvo or VW.

Basically, in rallycross the car matters far more than it would in TSD, and splitting it between experienced and novice doesn't make much sense in my mind. If we were going to go that route then we might as well take Greg's route and get rid of classing all together and have a little 'N' flag next to peoples results who are new to the game.

One thing Ryan, AWD isn't always faster, a number of years ago nobody could catch 2 VW Golfs, unless it was icy. Even then, they were both in the top 3. AWD is heavier. This is also a major factor. I personally don't see an issue with how it's classed now, maybe if a bunch of 2wd (or 1wd in Dave's case ) start showing up regularly, then at the AGM make an ammendment to the rules, BAC AGM that is, as these are only club events.

My 2 cents on this issue.

Good points, Brian. It was mostly in my experience I was talking; AWD has usually dominated the 2WD when I was taking part except for a few exceptions.

Realistically, there isn't anything wrong with how it is now for classifications either. I don't think the majority of participants are in it for a trophy, kind of like how people go to Kartbahn just to go fast and try and beat some times. Rallycross is similarly fun and casual to approach, and I think that should be the focus and scope we look at.

If we want to make it really complicated, maybe we should move to Bancroft and play pro rallycross instead. I don't see much space for such a stringent system here.

I don't think we have to re-invent the wheel here. We have had the same classing system for years, and its always worked pretty well. The problem we are having is with a couple of cars with modifications that were not being classed correctly for a variety of reasons. I think we can keep the classes the same, with just more detailed description as to what makes a vehicle prepared class. Make it as straight forward as possible, and there will be no need to make new/different classes, or try and keep track of whether some one has done 8 events, and are still novice, or 9 events and should be experienced.

_________________
"On snow or ice or gravel, we all know that a car will not stop or steer. And yet rally cars do both of these things. That means the whole thing is sorcery, and the people who do the driving must be witches." - Jermy Clarkson.

I will second that. Ron and Mal S were untouchable, with very few exceptions.

_________________
"Nos Ludos Intra Vehicula"

"That is on the floor..... in fifth..... 6500????..." -Buffum to Smith (140mph+, Rallye Charlevoix.....)

"A HUNDRED AND EIGHTY FIVE DOLLARS????"

"Great, now we're gonna get frikken' yelled at....."
"Let the record show that the evening degenerated at 2022hrs..... Duly noted..."

I agree Wayne. the only thing that would need to be clarified is this blurb from the BAC website (and on the FB page, etc..)

Classes:
Prepared: Including (a) Rally and Race prepared vehicles, (b) vehicles with other than OEM (as the vehicle in question came from the factory) drive train (engine, transmission, rear ends, etc…) and or suspension modifications, (c) vehicles that have had parts removed that cause a weight reduction (seats, carpets, headliners, air conditioning, ABS, etc…)

All wheel / 4 Wheel Drive

Front wheel drive

Rear wheel drive

**Note: Studded snow tires are allowed in all classes.**

Re-tooling the section in bold would be enough. (a) what makes a rally or race car? cage, stickers? (b) what extent do we enforce this? are we allowed aftermarket shocks, oil filters, suspension pickup points (spacers)? (c) pretty clear here, but maybe clarify replacing (not removing) things (ie a smaller battery, an aftermarket seat, etc..)

It could be changed to in a way that captures all the above. for example, you would be in prepared if you have:
Exterior: modified body panels. skid plates, spoilers, hood scoops, plastic undertrays can be added-removed.
Interior: removal (not replacement) of OEM-equipped parts. limited to things bigger than a radio/cigarette lighter
Driveline: Anything engine, transmission, differential, driveshafts, other than how it would have been available from the factory. (ie. you could have a 5spd 2.5l impreza, so swapping transmissions would be fine to make it how you could have got it. miatas could be open diff or LSD, so you could put a factory LSD in any miata. )
Suspension: springs other than what were available on that chassis.
Wheels/Tires: Blah blah

You get the picture. It would automatically capture 'race cars', as well as making it a bit more clear for what is/isn't good to go for the normal 'stock' classes

I think it's fine the way it is, some people take it too seriously and then we get into these topics of how to basically add more rules and that would just ruin it.
it's all for fun, anyone that thinks it's the step before stage rally needs their head examined hahaha

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Whynot Performance
2002 Subaru Impreza WRX
2003 Acura RSX Type S STF #09 (Co driver)

I think that clarification is what lies at the crux of this issue, and is probably where the biggest debate lies. The problem is you begin complicating things quickly when you start looking for clarifications.

I personally don't totally prescribe to the idea that any non-OEM parts automatically puts you in Prepared. A cat-back exhaust or a CAI are not considered substantial enough performance upgrades for a class bump in solosport, so I can't see it doing the same in rallycross.

The stripped interior debate...I'm not totally sure on. I don't think our stages are long enough nor our timing and scoring accurate enough to warrant bumping up a car for a stripped interior; 0.2 seconds rarely makes or breaks a rallycross event. If you start adding chassis rigidity after stripping the chassis though, I can see that being cause for bumping a car up a class.

That's just an idea I have based on the hot button topic that's been circulating for the last week.

I have most of the interior from a 95 Neon (4 door) sitting in a pile at home that I'd be more than happy to give to Dave if that helps settle things. (Seriously Dave, or anyone else, if you want it it's yours).

Don't see an easy solution for that big grey area between stock and prepped. Unless you have a tech inspector that looks at each vehicle and draws the line between what is prepped or not then there will always be these discussions from time to time. The real question is whether or not the organizers want to make it a serious competition or keep it as a fun series where no one really should care what class they or anyone else are in. Even with amended rules there are still going to be interpretation and enforcement issues. A fun series is easier, as you can just respond with "Relax... go play in the dirt."

The stripped interior part is one of the things actually in the rules, you must have been there when that decision was made? It won't change now until the BAC AGM or a special meeting due to the start of the rallycross season being before then, if it is.
Anyway, I am out.

This thread is to discuss things for next year. I'm just putting ideas out there of things that can be clarified, changed or discussed. I'm not saying these should be the rules, but with some parties fussing, I thought I would approach it.

No need to get all knickered about it. That's what Dev's Rallycross post is for.

Hardly getting knickered about it, I'm heading to work for the night. I'll read up in the morning. Continue on!

I think I misinterpreted your tone, Brian. The drama surrounding this stuff got me on edge, so in the spirit of that I apologize for the comment.

I like rallyX because the rules ere simple and I didn't think I had to care about mods. I'll be upfront, every car I've entered has been classed in the drivetrain categories despite not being stock. Swaybars, springs, shocks, etc. I don't think it made a lick of difference in the overall results. Rallycross has always seemed like driver and tires are most of the reason for winning, with drivetrain being a factor in the overall results. You routinely see low power piece of sh!t beaters run up near the top of the results because a decent driver is behind the wheel.

Getting picky about the rules just opens up a can of worms IMO. I would wager there are far more cars than anyone thinks that should be in prepared by the letter of the rules given how many daily drivers have been competing. From my slalom experience putting people in high prep classes for a simple mod just gives them a reason not to come back. Some people don't mind, but we've definitely seen some that do despite it not "really" making a difference.

And as Greg mentioned, when you have 60 competitors lots of classes can work, but when you only have 10-20, having a lot of classes just means participation points. This is why we cut down autoX to be 6 groupings, and realistically could cut it down to 4.

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'99 BMW M3 / "Elvic"

I was all by my lonesome in xp most of last year. Just for a lack of carpet.

_________________
Here at Whynot Performance.