AGM is coming up next month and the season is over, so why not try to organize what we want to whine talk about.

I only really have 3 things:

1. What does everyone think of the new scoring system?

2. Downed pylon rules (ie competitor comes across a downed pylon and reports it to the course worker). This has come up at multiple events. ASN states the following:



Which is fine, except we have multiple events with 2 cars on course (digby, slemon, SJ, moncton) and a competitor leaving the course where they feel like it is going to possibly red flag the trailing car and not trip the timer properly. I've always had the understanding I should finish the course at "80%" so I don't ruin the run of the person coming behind me, but it isn't written anywhere.

3. JDM car classing. Lots of unwritten "rules" I've been told but I can't find anything from ARMS or ASN. Going by SCCA rules (referenced by ASN) they cannot run anything but Modified class. But I don't think sticking to that rule in this region would do anything but hurt attendance. I end up having to class a lot of stuff for ASCC and I'm just going off what I've been told by other people is the way to do it.

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'99 BMW M3 / "Elvic"

ASCC or ARMS topics?

I've got a few that i've half-considered a couple times. i feel like people i've talked to also were interested in some of these.

1: for ARMS regional events: Since it's happened to me/us numerous times, what about staggering run groups differently during events where we know the weather will be variable? for example, events where it's rained overnight and the course is cold/wet in the morning and dry in the afternoon (Geary). Alternatively, dry-ish in the morning and raining later (Moncton last year, Digby Day 2 this year). I know this would be a bit more time in exchanging run groups, but it'd make it a bit more fair for those who want to be considered for the 'Overall Championship'. We did something similar to this at a Moncton event a few weeks ago and it was a ton of fun and went smoothly. Again this would only make sense for events where there's a forecast for immanent rain, or where the track is rapidly drying from a previous shower.

2: for ARMS or ASCC: for big enough events, 3 run groups rather than two. each group has a work period, competing period and an addition period where they can watch/eat/hang out. Similar to St. John earlier this season. I know a few of us liked this format, especially where you're standing around with 5 people at your worker station, when you only need 2-3.

3: For ARMS regional events: shorter runs, but more of them. our runs were a bit shorter this year compared to last year in general. but would anybody be more interested in six 60 second runs at Slemon vs four 90 second runs?

Anyways, i'm just thinking out loud. I'm not actually unhappy with the way things are going!

I think it was Dave Hull that conveyed the message from ASN that a JDM car (that was also sold in Canada) is permitted in its listed class, however it cannot be in a lower class than SP.
Whoever it was, it was 3 or 4 years ago on this board

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Money ---> Heat and Noise

MMSC #12/ASP

Not only does everyone get a break, but it also makes for shorter worker stints which is better for those with back issues (aggravated by standing for prolonged periods).

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1997 Talon TSi AWD
2008 EVO X MR

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Money ---> Heat and Noise

MMSC #12/ASP

This definitely needs to be cleared up. there's 3 broad categories here that would need to be considered. (1) a JDM vehicle that's also sold in Canada/USA, exact same options (ie a stock impreza, s2000, etc...). (2) A JDM vehicle sold in Can/USA but a higher trim level than available here (ie Impreza STI type R, S2000 VGS). (3) JDM vehicle not available in Can/USA (Skylines, Beats, etc..)

I can imagine (1) being allowed in street classes, (2) being in a more 'prepared' class, and I have no opinion about (3).

ASN allows JDM cars run in the appropriate SP class. If a car isn't classified, it's the same as any other non-classified car. My EVO isn't classified, so you go through and find the catch-all that applies. If you follow SCCA classing, all JDM cars start in SSM. SCCA isn't going to start classing non-US domestic vehicles. That they specifically reference JDM vehicles in their regulations means it's intentional. That you can't run in Street or Street Touring eliminates any differences in models. You're not going to be competitive in a JDM vehicle unless you prep it to whatever class it falls under.

this is a good reason why it's a great discussion topic. A previoius car of mine was a mercedes w124 from japan. It was a JDM sold vehicle, but left hand drive. it was identical to the Can/US version, except it had glass headlights that blinded oncoming traffic, pokemon cards under the seats and a different vin. Since Canada is in a more unique situation than the US as far as importing cars, i'd still consider this a decent topic for further discussion at the AGM.

Downed pylons. Venues are different. Some courses might have multiple cars on course. Some courses might loop back on itself. If you have a small lot with one car on course at a time, then what is in the ASN regulations is appropriate. If you have big venue or multiple cars on course, then you might want to get cars off faster unless it causes a situation where cars might be put in a risky situation (like head towards on another). Slemon can have 3 or 4 cars on course at the same time (and it gets really busy in timing and scoring). At Loring or at Devens, there might be 5-6 cars on course at the same time. In those scenarios, you would like people to cross the finish in the same order to reduce the number of re-runs. Not so much an issue now, but some older timing equipment needed the car to cross the finish regardless.

In the end, it's up to organizer to specify what to do in this scenario if a different procedure is required. It's why it's covered in the driver's meeting and why the driver's meeting is mandatory. If it's not covered in the driver's meeting then, follow the ASN rule.

As a competitor, I do like 3 run groups. 4 run groups is great too! As an organizer, it's not that simple. For the 2014 CAC, I considered doing 3 run groups, but decided against it as it would to tough to cover all the work assignments. AMP and Digby are other venues where you need more workers per group. It's not always feasible to do 3 or more run groups.

Number of workers per station. When I was doing worker assignments for the CAC, I want 4 people per station. 1 is the station chief and works the radio. 2 works the audit sheet. 3 and 4 are runners. Worker stations at Slemon cover larger areas so more than one runner helps. For club and regional events, we usually don't use audit sheets. I've always thought doing them for regionals would be good idea as people are confused with what they are when they show up at the CAC.

In regards to the three run group idea, I personally agree.
For an ASCC event for example, if we had thirty competitors we could run in groups of ten where the ten not running could have their lunch break. If we did that we'd save atleast a half hour that we could use for fun runs/shootout/etc.

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Whynot Performance
2002 Subaru Impreza WRX
2003 Acura RSX Type S STF #09 (Co driver)

I very much like the idea of 3 run groups, but the minimum number of people is hard sometimes. "# of worker stations x 6 + 9 for start, grid, and finish", makes it impossible to do with less than 39 entries with only a five stations. Digby, Slemon, and AMP simply will never be able to do 3 run groups, unless we start seeing nearly 100 competitors at an event, at which point becomes quite difficult to manage.

I am also in huge favor of split run groups, for varying weather days (2 runs, work, 2 runs, work) VMI and CASC-or do this with success, but I would understand the time constraints on larger courses where workers are ferried out by truck. When workers are walking distance away from their car, we could impose a 5 minute change over for cars to get gridded up. All vehicle set-up/prep work would need to be done before first going out to work a station.

The one thing that annoys me most is organizers being unfamiliar with rules, and changing them on the spot. I'm surprised no one but myself bitched about Fredericton only having 3 runs. All the ARMS regional autoslalom sup-regs, specify that competitors get a MINIMUM OF 4 TIMED RUNS. I do not care what mishaps occurred during they day; rules are rules, and one or a couple individuals can not change them on the fly without approval from everyone competing or organizing. $60 was expensive for an event in the first place, but then to cut of 25% is almost insulting, especially, where it was decided to do "fun-runs" afterwards. Not to be too down on organizers, I do understand what goes into making these events happen, and the stress involved. I greatly appreciate all volunteers, but i just think certain things need to be addressed.

In regards to the new scoring system, it has it's pros and cons.

It makes for a lot closer final score, assuming, many drivers have been consistently tight with each other. On the flip side, if you have 2 "off" days, you've basically eliminated yourself from the championship. One is a dropped event, but if you really sh!t the bed a second time, 5 points is easy to lose, but damn near impossible to gain back. this was my case, where with 2 events, to go, I lost all hope of obtaining first overall, but at the same time I knew that as long as I "showed up" to at least one more, I had deadlocked myself into third, with nobody going to catch me.

Personally I like the new scoring system for longer courses (80sec+) where you can get a few point spread, and you truly do need to be consistent with your skill. For short courses (<45sec) anyone with any ability ends up with 99 or 100 points.

Basically the point spread in the top 10 is negligible for short courses. Unlike Saturday Digby, where I placed third, but only had 96 points, and almost everyone drove well that day)

as for the scoring system. yes I also noticed that:



Thinking about it though I think it is fair, and it rewards showing up to events just the same as our old system did by the way. I definitely like the class grouping.

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2007 Volkswagon GTI
2002 Nissan Sentra SER spec-V
2010 Toyota Venza

When you score this years results using last years method, nothing really changes (with or without a drop-event). Ben & Scott switch places. Otherwise, for the top of the 'overall championship' list it's the same order.

The big differences in outcome from the two scoring systems comes lower down in the leaderboards. In the old system, Somebody can show up and do well in a single event, score 9-20 points, and beat any entrant that attended every single event but failed to finish top 8. In the new system, if you show up to every event you're pretty well going to get an automatic 550/700 points for the series. The remaining 150 really depend on how well you did in each event. I personally like the new system because it rewards those that come out often.

Greg just curious did you calculate using the new grouping system? sound like you did because with the old individual grouping it would be even worse with a few people getting 14 points every event for showing up. also did you look at ASCC or Regional or both?

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2007 Volkswagon GTI
2002 Nissan Sentra SER spec-V
2010 Toyota Venza

I only looked at the overall championship points. the number of points you get is related to what position overall you pax'd. These points aren't the same as in each individual grouping. example, I could win in STR and get 20 points in the Street Touring grouping. However, if I pax'd 3rd overall behind street/prepared/mod cars, I'd only get 14 points for the Overall championship

Well the way we used to do it (before last year) if you were 3rd overall (we didn't use pax) but 1st in STR and it was a full class (3 or more) you would get 20 points. these points would also count towards the overall championship.

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2007 Volkswagon GTI
2002 Nissan Sentra SER spec-V
2010 Toyota Venza

Your class points last year were irrelevant to the overall.

Overall was determined by PAX, with first takes 30pts, second with 27pts and so on...

That could work fine in smaller venues (SSW, small parking lots, etc) but you'd lose too much time during the change overs for large lots like Digby & Slemon.
You'd lose well over an hour changing people back and forth multiple times.

Also anyone interested in suggesting Time Attack or Track Days topics, please see the link below:
http://armsinc.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=14151

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"The future is already here — it's just not very evenly distributed."-William Gibson
1989 Van Diemen - Formula 2000 Continental

If you have 3 groups then you can cut out the lunch break, win win!

Stream of consciousness incoming.

The JDM thing needs to be added to the ASN rulebook somewhere (or I'm blind and can't find it, but I searched both). Shouldn't have to find a posting from 3 years ago to clarify a rule. Not an ARMS issue I know, but still an annoyance. I still think the way the worded the rule isn't very good - there is no consideration for the cars that shared a chassis with NA cars but didn't share a motor. E36 M3 is a good example - Everywhere but north America got 280hp or 321hp motors, but by that rule they would be classed with the NA version (240hp) in SP. But if I installed that motor, I would be bumped to SM. Not to mention it throws PAX stuff out the window. I'll follow the ASN rules but I won't pretend to like them


Except T&S wouldn't get much of a break. I'm thinking some of us ASCC guys should start learning how to use the timing system so we could do a 3-run group event. It'd pretty much be limited to sackville for us anyway - aside from this year we usually only have 1-2 guys per station at digby. And even in sackville it won't work if the class groupings are too lopsided to split 3 ways. 3 run groups is something you can't really decide on until registration for the event closes. But it DID work well in SJ this year.

Regarding staggered runs...it seems like a lot of work with little gain. Digby still wouldn't have been "fair" this year as only one run started with a dry track and by the time 2 runs were complete (and you factor in a changeover time) the track was fully wet and grip was 90% gone. It also punishes anyone with rcomps in the cold weather we have at the start/end of the season. It's hard enough to get any heat in the tires with 4 runs in the wet. I'm also not a fan of adding extra time to events where I have a 4 hour drive to get home from.



This I absolutely support, but more because I get frustrated with artificially long courses. There seems to be the idea in this region that if you're driving 2-4 hours the course should be "long" so you get your money's worth. Which leads to some pretty awful course design. 10 times out of 10 I would rather a course shorter by 20 seconds than a bunch of tight sections to get longer runs. I hate to make a specific callout, but speedway 660 is a perfect example. I would have thrown those 2 pin turns in the garbage and just looped around the track a 2nd time and kept the stopbox where it was. The course at the coliseum the day before was 20 seconds shorter but twice as fun because it flowed well. We cut Digby day 2 short this year and I think it worked out fine. With the increases we've seen in attendance consideration should be given to having to run 50-60 cars through in a day.

Which brings up another rant, course designers in the region could be a little more open to criticism. I've heard lots of legitimate complaints about various courses at events, but nothing gets said because it just gets taken personally. I know course design isn't easy to get right (see AMP this year ), but constructive feedback makes it better for everyone.

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'99 BMW M3 / "Elvic"

Random addition: Tight gates in "high" speed sections resulting in cones getting blown over. What to do about it, how to prevent it, etc. Happened more than a few times at AMP this year.

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2013+14+15 Atlantic Sports Car Club Overall Autocross Champion
2013+14+15 Atlantic Region Motor Sports Overall Autocross Champion
2017-18 BAC Overall Rallycross Champion

Course designers (when not competing) should drive the course at a moderate pace before the cones are chalked to see how things flow

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Money ---> Heat and Noise

MMSC #12/ASP

That would definitely help.

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1997 Talon TSi AWD
2008 EVO X MR

Kinda boring administrative stuff, but I'm looking to clean up a few things in the ARMS Autoslalom Regulations.

First one fixes a typo and aligns our regulations with ASN.

Second, we haven't been quoting the permit number in the supps for as long as I can remember. It's not really important, so removing it. Also, aligning advertising regulations with ASN.

Third proposal removes the registration shall remain open until clause. It's a problem for organizers and with online pre-registration available for all regional events, there's really no excuse for not being registered beforehand even if you're travelling from away. Also, aligns the regulation for driver's meeting with ASN.

Proposals below:

Page	Original	Proposal
4-5	12.1.4 Insurance Event liability insurance coverage is mandatory for all Solosport events. Insurance is obtained through ASN Canada FIA. All competitors, officials, and workers are covered against liability to third parties, but are individually responsible for deductible amounts. The policy does not cover participant injury or damages. All persons entering the event area, e.g. the course, timing and scoring, grid, paddock, scrutineering area, or any area normally closed to the public must sign the insurance waiver for that event. A copy of the insurance certificate shall be posted at all Solosport events.	1.1.4 Insurance Event liability insurance coverage is mandatory for all Solosport events (See ASN Autoslalom Regulations 3.1.1 and ASN Solosport GCRs 4.20). A copy of the insurance certificate shall be posted at all Solosport events.
6	1.2.2 Notices and Publicity: For all ARMS Regional Autoslalom events, supplementary regulations which include all pertinent information about the event type, location, date, times, and any special instructions or restrictions shall be sent to all ARMS member clubs no later than 30 days before the date of the event. The ARMS Autoslalom permit number shall be quoted in the supplementary regulations. Organizers may publish information about an Autoslalom event using posters or media advertisements provided the ads specify that the event is open only to members of ASN Canada affiliated clubs. All public advertisements shall be in the form of a notice, and not an invitation for the general public to attend.	1.2.2 Notices and Publicity: For all ARMS Regional Autoslalom events, supplementary regulations which include all pertinent information about the event type, location, date, times, and any special instructions or restrictions shall be sent to all ARMS member clubs no later than 30 days before the date of the event. All advertising or promotional material shall conform with ASN Solosport GCRs 3.5.
7	1.2.4 Event Operation: Registration shall be opened at least one hour before the published starting time for the event. Registration shall remain open until the last car makes its first run on the course. Instructions to competitors: The organizer shall call all competitors to a driver's meeting prior to the start of the event. All competitors are required to attend this meeting. The Organizer shall cover the following topics: • Introduction of event officials. • Review of the course/course diagram. • Ensure all entrants have signed the waiver. • Describe the primary and backup timing. • Describe the penalties to be assessed. • Walk the course. • Review supplementary regulations.	1.2.4 Event Operation: Registration shall be opened at least one hour before the published starting time for the event. A mandatory driver’s meeting shall be held prior to the start of the event as per ASN Autoslalom Regulations 3.2.1.

Drive slower

Re: Number of runs, the supp regs state 4 runs (but also that schedule is subject to change), but the ASN regs specify only minimum 2 timed runs. Maybe we should modify sup regs to reflect that?

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2009 Civic Hybrid. 1997 BMW 328iS
evanwritescars.com

Sorry, not sure how to do that.

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#20 Scion FR-S 6MT Powered by:
Great North Performance, Morine's Towing Performance & Off Road, Jani-King Canada and Blue Buzzard Performance Parts.

2013+14+15 Atlantic Sports Car Club Overall Autocross Champion
2013+14+15 Atlantic Region Motor Sports Overall Autocross Champion
2017-18 BAC Overall Rallycross Champion