When others start stepping up to the plate like Ming, Ray, Dave, Joel, Dwight, Jason, etc... organizing and running in events I will listen to what you have to say, other than that shut up all ready...
Yours in Motorsports Stacy Chapman NBSCC Club President
I'm not sure why you NBSCC guys are getting all sore and thinking we are talking about last year's course specifically (because we aren't), so there is literally no need to get defensive. We all know the deal with last year's Long Wharf event. Second, you're absolutely not going to tell me to shut up, your list of people makes it very obvious who you were referring to. To be clear, Scott and I have done a lot of helping while competing, so don't be silly and try to disregard our opinion for that reason.
This is a forum for discussion, and that is what we are doing. No one is being mean or stepping out of line. We are just sharing our opinions and experiences, and as always my focus is on getting more competitors and keeping them. Scott and I aren't trying to voice a concern, that is all. If I wanted to complain about LW specifically, believe me, i would have. Someone also brought up the most important point of all in regards to course design, and that is making it fair between pax classes. Some cars need more room to stretch their legs, and the pax value 100% relies on this.
If you think the readers of this thread don't want to hear us chatting about how to make our sport better, I guess you'll have to delete this. The only people worried about what is being discussed here are the people who are being overly sensitive about something that is completely independent of this discussion.
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2013+14+15 Atlantic Sports Car Club Overall Autocross Champion 2013+14+15 Atlantic Region Motor Sports Overall Autocross Champion 2017-18 BAC Overall Rallycross Champion
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2002 9:48 am Posts: 1840 Location: Rothesay, NB
So here is my post in complete context:
Quote:
Took me a minute to write this, so nothing against the last post'r (...because there has been multiple while I was writing) but enough of the course design stuff already! Start your own thread if you want to talk about it ...as it makes NBSCC look like we designed some crappy course that nobody liked last year and could hurt our entries this year for all the advertisement that links to this thread!
I've got moderator powers and I will take you out
Taking a page out of Andy's excellent post on another topic with full diclosure: For the record if everybody only knew how close we came to having our event cancelled in the middle of it last year and the only thing that saved it was by me (that's right, I'm taking ownership) making it tight at the beginning to give the illusion of slow speed to the guard when he sat his butt down at the start line with instructions to "shut us down if we exceeded 60km/hr". Could you just imagine the webboard discussion if we had to stop the event and redesign it? "He got more runs than me!" "I put my tires on to favour the prominent right hand turns, and I had to switch!" "I had to leave early because the event went late and missed my final run!" etc...
The course was smooth, flowing, 50-60sec in length easy to follow with one unrelated course design O/C, and minimal cone hits.
The event started on time, finished on time, and nobody stood on course shagging cones for 3hrs straight.
If there was problems they were addressed at the time. For instance when made aware that the second run group's paddock area was sand'ier than the 1st run groups a worker was assigned with a pair of gloves whose only job was to completely wipe off the tires of the vehicles pulling up to the start line.
If you went "slow in the slow parts and fast in the fast parts" then some probably touched 80km/h.
I drove my non-powered steering fat tire CRX and then my rack & pinion non-assisted 911 through it over and over ...and then for good measure I drove a crewcab truck though it at speed with no problem. Because of this I took myself out of the competition event due to any unfair advantage that this would cause. Because of that and not making three other events (due to other commitments like Joel) I did not meet the required number of events to trophy at the end of the year despite winning XP.
When others start stepping up to the plate like Ming, Ray, Dave, Joel, Dwight, Jason, etc... organizing and running in events I will listen to what you have to say, other than that shut up all ready...
Yours in Motorsports Stacy Chapman NBSCC Club President
1.) We know that you understood what had to happen at Long Wharf last year. But anyone reading it from the links we provided in our advertisements may not, that's why we asked for the discussion on course design to stop. Perhaps I could have put it better by saying "I will listen to what you have to say in another topic"
2.) The sport we are in requires everybody to work, and is the only sporting type event that we know of where competitors also work the event. Your help is appreciated during these events.
3.) Yes, we agree with you. Course design is completely independent of the discussion concerning our upcoming event.
Thanks Stacy Chapman
_________________ The fricton circle for my 911 Porsche resembles more of an oblong... I'm either trailbraking or accelerating while trying to get it to turn!
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 11:25 am Posts: 1062 Location: Moncton, NB
So what do you guys like/not like about certain layouts?
Personally I think Ming does a great job with the local events, maximizing seat time and avoiding areas of bad asphalt. The practice of designing a course that allows you to go to the end, do a loop, then come back through the same path (effectively doubling the size of the course) is a great way to lengthen a course without forcing you to actually memorize twice as many obstacles.
I personally dislike when a high speed section turns 90 degrees to a lower (or medium speed) section that has a curb or other barrier on the outside. Although I'm sure we keep with the regulations, I still don't feel comfortable going 100% in those areas the way I do on the rest of an autocross course. That's tricky to avoid without having access to gigantic venues though.
Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 7:17 pm Posts: 5355 Location: Village of Bedford
When I was attending events I never thought about good and bad layouts...I would just show up and do what I was suppose to do, which was to figure out the quickest way for me and my car to get thru the course as it is presented. I was always happy just to have a course to run on but I always thought about better ways to position a course relative to the venue it was being held at. One of the more exciting things to do, for me, was to analyze the layout and realise where time could be "lost" if I got sloppy. Then try to set my car up to best achieve that goal.
But that was long ago when the Drive to the event was as much fun as the event... .
For those wondering, I didn't start this thread. I posted this in the Saint John ARMS #1 autocross thread, but apparently it was "bad press" to have a grown up discussion where outsiders might see it.
As i said in another post in that thread, I didn't mean to sound like a whiny b****, I was just noting that are "good" and "bad" courses in my opinion. Yes, this is completely subjective. For me, hairpins next to curbs or other "sketchy" elements make a course "bad", as well as bad placement of elements near bumps, light poles etc.
Another "bad" course layout in my opinion is one that I don't find to be fun. (yes, completely subjective again) Lack of "flow" can attribute to this as well as sketchyness. I know courses aren't necessarily supposed to be fun, as being challenging is of utmost importance. Fun courses get, and keep competitors active though, and that's why I believe they should be fun. Repetitive elements, "seas of cones" as well as other annoyances take away from the fun factor for me.
Poor placement of stop boxes is my personal pet peave, as I believe one should never have to worry about killing timing equipment or flying into a ditch while approaching the final element of the course.
Yes, this is all rather fluffy and is not something that is easily nailed down. I don't typically complain about courses, but instead let Joel or others know when I personally am having a lot of fun.
Hopefully this makes sense.
_________________ #20 Scion FR-S 6MT Powered by: Great North Performance, Morine's Towing Performance & Off Road, Jani-King Canada and Blue Buzzard Performance Parts.
2013+14+15 Atlantic Sports Car Club Overall Autocross Champion 2013+14+15 Atlantic Region Motor Sports Overall Autocross Champion 2017-18 BAC Overall Rallycross Champion
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2002 9:48 am Posts: 1840 Location: Rothesay, NB
What did everybody think of the 3 run groups last Sunday?
Not that many years ago that's how we used to do it ...work one, drive one, spectate one. I heard a lot of good comments about going back to that format, what does everybody think?
Stacy
_________________ The fricton circle for my 911 Porsche resembles more of an oblong... I'm either trailbraking or accelerating while trying to get it to turn!
What did everybody think of the 3 run groups last Sunday?
Not that many years ago that's how we used to do it ...work one, drive one, spectate one. I heard a lot of good comments about going back to that format, what does everybody think?
Stacy
I really liked it. Plus that way you don't really need a lunch break.
I like 3 run groups when I am just competing. If everyone had classed them selfs correctly last weekend, it would have saved you a lot of time. Would have releaved the conjestion in the paddock area. It's the best setup to use in that lot. Just not enough area for 20 plus cars. Run groups 2 and 3 went great. Good flow, ample space. But the only way I would do 3 run groups is if there was no lunch for timing and scoring. Or we were tight on space.
_________________ Watch out for porcupine exiting turn 9!!!!!!
What did everybody think of the 3 run groups last Sunday?
Not that many years ago that's how we used to do it ...work one, drive one, spectate one. I heard a lot of good comments about going back to that format, what does everybody think?
Stacy
The number of run groups depends on a number of factors. Why I don't state how many run groups ahead of time. It's important to have enough workers to keep the event going smoothly. We've had 2 to 4 run groups at Slemon before.
What did everybody think of the 3 run groups last Sunday?
Not that many years ago that's how we used to do it ...work one, drive one, spectate one. I heard a lot of good comments about going back to that format, what does everybody think?
Stacy
The number of run groups depends on a number of factors. Why I don't state how many run groups ahead of time. It's important to have enough workers to keep the event going smoothly. We've had 2 to 4 run groups at Slemon before.
I think in 08 at slemon you had 3-4 run groups. No lunch break, and i think a timing and scoring rotation. It was sooo nice. Time to check things out, chat people up from away, set the car up, watch runs, and just generally relax.
_________________ Watch out for porcupine exiting turn 9!!!!!!
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 11:25 am Posts: 1062 Location: Moncton, NB
Having more than 2 run groups does significantly improve the fun of the event. Being able to mingle and watch without responsibility for a while makes a big difference
I was just noting that are "good" and "bad" courses in my opinion. Yes, this is completely subjective. For me, hairpins next to curbs or other "sketchy" elements make a course "bad", as well as bad placement of elements near bumps, light poles etc.
Just to add to that, in my opinion a course which has a slalom though a children's playground and/or a sweeper along the ridge of a giant sink hole makes a course "bad". I also feel that a course with a switchback located in a WW2 mine field is a poor design.
Food for thought.
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Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:17 pm Posts: 628 Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia
Dev wrote:
As i said in another post in that thread, I didn't mean to sound like a whiny b****, I was just noting that are "good" and "bad" courses in my opinion. Yes, this is completely subjective. For me, hairpins next to curbs or other "sketchy" elements make a course "bad", as well as bad placement of elements near bumps, light poles etc.
Another "bad" course layout in my opinion is one that I don't find to be fun. (yes, completely subjective again) Lack of "flow" can attribute to this as well as sketchyness. I know courses aren't necessarily supposed to be fun, as being challenging is of utmost importance.
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:03 am Posts: 275 Location: Rothesay
Joel N wrote:
I like 3 run groups when I am just competing. If everyone had classed them selfs correctly last weekend, it would have saved you a lot of time. Would have releaved the conjestion in the paddock area. It's the best setup to use in that lot. Just not enough area for 20 plus cars. Run groups 2 and 3 went great. Good flow, ample space. But the only way I would do 3 run groups is if there was no lunch for timing and scoring. Or we were tight on space.
I never did get out of the van. for lunch, then again lunch was already in the van I agree that having the class and car number .....the CORRECT class and car number on the car and that info relayed to the guy on the keyboard is very important. a small issue was the wrong driver received a time because the car had 2 drivers and both numbers were visible or not changed. It may have been because that info was not given clearly during registration or the drivers meeting. with the software in use once a time is accepted it is locked to that car number. I had to pull the manual out for the software in order to figure out how to correct the time.
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:03 am Posts: 275 Location: Rothesay
speaking of registration, number assignment and drivers meetings. what info would/should be given out during those times?
describe the best flow. IE: I have preregistered for the event. so I walk up to registration table. sign the forms pay my money take self tech form. fill out form. stop at timing tent get number and confirm class number. pick up free coffee and head out to help/course walk.
what would be easier? how can we speed this process up? what if it is your first time? think back to the first event you went to, what should you have been told to make the day better?
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 11:25 am Posts: 1062 Location: Moncton, NB
When you register, there should be a big sign visible saying "Mandatory driver's meeting at 9am" or whatever I think that the meeting should be a recorded message with someone going through the motions, moving a cone around the ground, inside/outside the box, etc. Basically the autocross equivalent of the safety briefing at the beginning of a flight. That way nothing is forgotten and everything is covered efficiently and reliably.
When you register, there should be a big sign visible saying "Mandatory driver's meeting at 9am" or whatever I think that the meeting should be a recorded message with someone going through the motions, moving a cone around the ground, inside/outside the box, etc. Basically the autocross equivalent of the safety briefing at the beginning of a flight. That way nothing is forgotten and everything is covered efficiently and reliably.
This. or at least read from a script. Better for you and us.
Some sort of "classing for dummies" would be nice. Maybe a spreadsheet or something.
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:03 am Posts: 275 Location: Rothesay
Evan Williams wrote:
Mike Pettipas wrote:
When you register, there should be a big sign visible saying "Mandatory driver's meeting at 9am" or whatever I think that the meeting should be a recorded message with someone going through the motions, moving a cone around the ground, inside/outside the box, etc. Basically the autocross equivalent of the safety briefing at the beginning of a flight. That way nothing is forgotten and everything is covered efficiently and reliably.
This. or at least read from a script. Better for you and us.
Some sort of "classing for dummies" would be nice. Maybe a spreadsheet or something.
perfect- now what do we write in the script? is there a document someplace that has most of the info of what needs to be shared.
When you register, there should be a big sign visible saying "Mandatory driver's meeting at 9am" or whatever I think that the meeting should be a recorded message with someone going through the motions, moving a cone around the ground, inside/outside the box, etc. Basically the autocross equivalent of the safety briefing at the beginning of a flight. That way nothing is forgotten and everything is covered efficiently and reliably.
This. or at least read from a script. Better for you and us.
Some sort of "classing for dummies" would be nice. Maybe a spreadsheet or something.
perfect- now what do we write in the script? is there a document someplace that has most of the info of what needs to be shared.
I'm not sure. Seems like there should be a ARMS approved script. We should workshop something if there isn't one already.
Intro, Cone rules, run groups, organizers/officials, thanks, sponsors, schedule (?)
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 5:36 pm Posts: 50 Location: Queen's County, NS
Evan Williams wrote:
Mike Pettipas wrote:
When you register, there should be a big sign visible saying "Mandatory driver's meeting at 9am" or whatever I think that the meeting should be a recorded message with someone going through the motions, moving a cone around the ground, inside/outside the box, etc. Basically the autocross equivalent of the safety briefing at the beginning of a flight. That way nothing is forgotten and everything is covered efficiently and reliably.
This. or at least read from a script. Better for you and us.
Some sort of "classing for dummies" would be nice. Maybe a spreadsheet or something.
I agree with the script idea. as for the "classing for dummies" what we need is a decision matrix or a flowchart to helps someone figure out if they are in stock touring or a prepared class. after that figuring out if you are STX or STU is easy, but a spreadsheet could help.
_________________ 2007 Volkswagon GTI 2002 Nissan Sentra SER spec-V 2010 Toyota Venza
Car number should be givin to the driver when they fill out the registration form. When a entry form finds its way to the timing person it will have name, class, and car number. This is how we do it. Seems to go pretty good, but new people don't know the system so once and a while there will be confusion. But it's good confusion because we new people keep this sport growing. Also we keep the car classing right at Registration. So when ever a new person shows, or a question is raised we can sort it out. And we have a handful of people who know the basics pretty good. I truly love how new people a always say its stock just because there's no turbo or wild engine work done. They find out quickly that HP is nothing in autocross.
Now for the drivers meeting, key is to run over the basics, point out the main volentiers and head autoslalom people, IE Ming, Dave, Alan, Trevor, Myself, all timing and scoring. This way new people will A- understand there's many people working hard to keep these events going, and B- know what our names are, and what we look like. Start with the people, Make sure everyone understands the waiver, then the safety, move the new people to front to cover penalties and flags, course design/stop box, remind people to remove all items in car (including floor mats), then be very forward that any and all driving around the lot and area be done in a legal manner. Drifting out of lots, burnouts and high speed driving is a DNF. The cost of paving a lot just for autocrosses isn't going to happen at the price we charge. So treat the lot and area properly. Then run groups if ready, or send everyone out for a final course walk followed by run groups.
I personally hate drivers meetings, soooooo glade Alan is has been doing them. Lol. I always forget something. There's no reason why we couldn't do a basic list of what needs to be covered. Then just add in the things that make each area different. People, sponsors and so on.
Oh and always inform the local police. I would guess they would approve of what we do, but it sure helps keep the off lot driving a little more calm when the fuz stops by.
_________________ Watch out for porcupine exiting turn 9!!!!!!
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