Alright guys, lets get some stuff going here.

AGM Topics.

What grouping system will we use in the 2015 Reg Autocross.
ASCC ran last years classing. 40odd class +
MMSC ran 4 combined groups.
ARMS ran 6 combined groups.

Ive asked a few people but they didnt really have any idea on what seems to work best. I do like the 6 classes. It combines the cars that have equal Mods done. I would like to see the Arms system left at 6 groups, as people who would be out of luck due to knowbody in there class can run there class and get PAXED off there correct class.

Outside of that i dont really have anything else to look at, other then will NBSCC and FMC run a regional each in 2015. If so, want to make it a double header, FMC on sat and NBSCC on sunday. Would help with car counts at both events. And again, NO DROPPED events for 2015 in the regional series.

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Watch out for porcupine exiting turn 9!!!!!!

AX-1995 Honda Civic CX FSP
RR-1995 Honda DelSol VTEC GT4
2009 Canadian Solosprint Champion.
ARMS Race Director. Race@armsinc.ca

I really liked the class grouping
Takes a lot of the luck (to see who else shows up) out of it

Maybe combine Prep and Mod classes, since no one shows up and they are both pretty much unlimited prep-wise?

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Money ---> Heat and Noise

MMSC #12/ASP

ASCC should adopt the ARMS system IMO.

I like the idea of the double header.

We need to get the points system clarified in terms of out of club entrants. The rulebook doesn't give a hard answer despite what we decided earlier this season. Better wording should be chosen so it is more obvious.

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#20 Scion FR-S 6MT Powered by:
Great North Performance, Morine's Towing Performance & Off Road, Jani-King Canada and Blue Buzzard Performance Parts.

2013+14+15 Atlantic Sports Car Club Overall Autocross Champion
2013+14+15 Atlantic Region Motor Sports Overall Autocross Champion
2017-18 BAC Overall Rallycross Champion

Can we see the results for this year done both ways? New and old? Make sure that it didn't bump somebody much higher.

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2009 Civic Hybrid. 1997 BMW 328iS
evanwritescars.com

Evan, I just compared the ARMS to the ASCC points, and its pretty close. I am the change, as in ARMS i get to run FSP and pax of it, ASCC i run SM and get beat alot. lol.

And Yes the plan is to make ASCC and ARMS scored the same way. And out of club entrans get bumped from the points. Not sure what MMSC scoring plans are.

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Watch out for porcupine exiting turn 9!!!!!!

AX-1995 Honda Civic CX FSP
RR-1995 Honda DelSol VTEC GT4
2009 Canadian Solosprint Champion.
ARMS Race Director. Race@armsinc.ca

Can we suggest going to NASA classing or PiPs for classing/scoring? Somebody might have an aneurism.

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2009 Civic Hybrid. 1997 BMW 328iS
evanwritescars.com

No. We can't. (Lol)

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#20 Scion FR-S 6MT Powered by:
Great North Performance, Morine's Towing Performance & Off Road, Jani-King Canada and Blue Buzzard Performance Parts.

2013+14+15 Atlantic Sports Car Club Overall Autocross Champion
2013+14+15 Atlantic Region Motor Sports Overall Autocross Champion
2017-18 BAC Overall Rallycross Champion

If you flip ASCC to PAX it does change the order quite a bit. Current system:



PAX (with classes adjusted)


It does shift things around for sure. I would say it makes the overall much more challenging as you now have to PAX well against 20-40 competitors. In the old system you only had to be consistently better than your class (and have a full class).

I'd say for ARMS it worked well for overall. The last event decided to overall winner, up to then there was only a 2 point gap between 1st and 2nd.



I like CASC-ORs style of scoring. Still use grouping similar to us but points are based on how close you came to the overall PAX time of the day. Similar to how we score time attack. I did the ASCC results up in the same fashion (best possible is 800):



Now there's a close finish

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'99 BMW M3 / "Elvic"

The other thing that seems to be more common with the new system is "show up and win 1 event, beat 30 guys who showed up for every event in the overall points." Is that an issue?

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2009 Civic Hybrid. 1997 BMW 328iS
evanwritescars.com

I noticed that, Not liking it, and will be suggesting that you must run MIN 60% to 75% of the events to count in overall points. We need to get numbers up as well. This might help. I think only 7 people ran the full regional series.

Scott, any chance you can put a link up to there rules? Might be a idea.

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Watch out for porcupine exiting turn 9!!!!!!

AX-1995 Honda Civic CX FSP
RR-1995 Honda DelSol VTEC GT4
2009 Canadian Solosprint Champion.
ARMS Race Director. Race@armsinc.ca

I'm actually not sure where there autoslalom points rules are listed...but the time attack rules can be found on page 19 of this PDF: http://www.casc.on.ca/sites/default/fil ... _rules.pdf

Basically it's (FTD PAX/Your PAX) x 100. It heavily weights towards attending all events as most people will end up with 80-90pts per event.

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'99 BMW M3 / "Elvic"

Sorry.




And while I see that this is a problem, I don't think excluding competitors who can't make it to all events is the answer. However, our points structure could use some help. Currently we just adopted our old points structure, which worked fine for a CLASS, and will likely work fine for combined classes as we currently do. However, for overall, especially getting 40+ competitors per event, the top 8 getting more than 1 point and everyone else getting 1 point, just isn't cutting it. Dad has a theory that if you get one point for entering and 1 point for every competitor that you pax ahead of, and accumulate those points for the overall series, only. Points per class work fine as they are. So, 46 competitors per event, 1st gets 46 points, 2nd gets 45, and so on, 46th gets 1 point. If only 15 competitors, 1st gets 15 points, 2nd gets 14, and so on.
That said, the other option as mentioned above would also be pretty good too, once we figure out how to get it done, after a while it will be easy to do, and also we can keep our friends from away on the scoring sheets! Atleast base our points off of theirs, if they beat us!

Anyway, my 2cents, from a 3 event guy if it's worth anything.

It might be an issue if people are bothered by it, if I understand what you're describing correctly.

The thing is, were those 30 guys driving competitively for the class they were in, and just missing out of the top 8 by fractions every single event; or were they underprepared for their class and not quite good enough?

I'd have a hard time supporting the idea of points based on how many people you beat, because that makes some events worth more than other events and I think that is not something we want happening. Take a fairly believable scenario - Saint John holds another big event, on a tight course, and along with all the regulars there are 30 new guys who have never autoslalomed before, it's the biggest event of the year turnout wise..... Should those drives be worth more than similar performances at Slemon or Digby or AMP, just because there were more drivers?

...and Joel - I know you aren't talking about me but you are describing me. My ARMS membership cost as much as everyone else's. If someone can't beat a driver in the overall ranking who only did three events in a season (or only one event) then they should try to improve or take up golf, not gripe about whether they came in 20th overall instead of 17th. Suggesting people have to make 75% of events to be ranked is more likely to turn off people who are on the fence, not make them want to come out more.

I'd think the idea of points based on how close to top PAX someone is (the CASC-OR method) is a great idea - I like that it's based on how competitive a driver was.

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Charles

I don't think it's a problem, solely because no one should care whether they came in 35th or 38th in the overall. If you're not top 3? 5? What does it really matter what your official score is, as long as you had fun and improved your driving for next year

I think the system with (Best PAX/Your PAX) x 100 is the ideal as far as fairness and accuracy in the overall standings, it's just a matter of whether the organizers want another step on top of what they're already doing

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Money ---> Heat and Noise

MMSC #12/ASP

I agree Charles, Making a MIN number of events could possible make a few people not bother coming out because what would it do for them. I figured someone would bring that side up, but i wanted to put it out there. And in no way do i want to push you or any other competitor away, but i would like to find a way to get you and others to more events.

And i do agree with Evan, If he ran every event, and landed 10th overall in PAX at every event he gets 8 points for the year. I do 1 event and finish 5Th or better i beat him overall. More less need to find a system like what Scott brought up to score the year.
Scott any chance you can take the overall for the year and use the Time attack scoring to sort it out. See how it works out with that system.

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Watch out for porcupine exiting turn 9!!!!!!

AX-1995 Honda Civic CX FSP
RR-1995 Honda DelSol VTEC GT4
2009 Canadian Solosprint Champion.
ARMS Race Director. Race@armsinc.ca

I can take a look at it tomorrow, I have all the spreadsheets on my work computer. I've built some excel code so if anyone wants me to look at a specific scoring system I can spit out results pretty easily.

I half agree with Evan, half agree with Charles. The points spread looks a bit ridiculous when most of the field ends the season with <8 points. But I also don't like the idea variable points based on car count. Keep it to a fixed formula, whether it is the current points system, CASC style or something else. It'd be really strange if a championship could be influenced on how many cars show up to the last event.

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'99 BMW M3 / "Elvic"

I think the current system has a certain elegance, but I may be biased!

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David Hewitt #63
ASCC Solo Director 2022

I'm not a fan of car count based points. One win shouldn't count more than others based on entrants.

Should it count more than 9 9th places? or 2 wins more than 9 5th places? That's my concern. I guess it doesn't matter overall.

Add your PAX finishing positions together (not running the event means last place points) and lowest score (highest average finish) wins? Maybe I should stop trying to reinvent the wheel.

Bonus points for going to every event? Or a dash plaque? Like Hot Rod does for power tour long haulers.

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2009 Civic Hybrid. 1997 BMW 328iS
evanwritescars.com

Another suggestion, why not a simple systhem like Scotia Speedworld uses for all of their series?
100 points for first and -2 points for every position after that.

If you go to more than one event you would be pretty much gaurenteed to finish ahead of someone who shows up once and wins, if you don't do so well in a single event you're not out of it, and it rewards consistency as well.

I don't think it matters for overall really. If you aren't in the top of the results consistently you aren't going to win/place. Whatever scoring method, it needs to be simple and easy to understand.

Here's ARMS 2014 done using the time attack method. As you can see, it pretty much guarantees you can't win if you miss an event. You could get 100 pts at 7/8 events but if someone went to all 8 with an average of 87.5 or better they would beat you.

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'99 BMW M3 / "Elvic"

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'99 BMW M3 / "Elvic"

That's just an error in the algorithm, I've been counting points regardless of class...your name was entered as "David H" for the last event results so the code dumped your points into the other David H.

With time attack style points event #8 should read "92.950" and you would bump to 7th overall. For SSW, 82 points for #8 and 14th overall.

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'99 BMW M3 / "Elvic"

I may be wrong, but the last time i checked the CASC-OR results they also had drop races. So they only counted the best 6/8 races they did. that allows people to either miss a race or have a bad event and still be in contention. Coming from the world of sailboat racing, if an overall series has enough races, all competitors get to drop at least one race. I agree with those other above that the CASC-OR style points system seems to be the most fair, it takes the number of competitors out of the equation and is solely based on how close you can get to the best.

for what its worth. an interesting modification to Brian's suggested system would be to just flip the points values based on your position. That is, if you finish first, you get one point. Second place gets two points, and so on. If you don't compete in an event, you get the amount of points equal to the number of competitors plus 1. In the end, the competitor with the lowest score wins. Once again, this is from what I experience with boats, and is the only way that it is done. I don't really support this method, but it wouldn't inflate the number of points you get for winning an event with 50 competitors vs 15.

Anyways, figured I'd share since I won't be able to go the the ARMS AGM...

CASC uses 5/8 events and their region isn't actually that much more spread out than ours. ARMS seems to function under the belief that if you drop events people will just not come. I'm not sure where this logic came from and I absolutely disagree with it. Sometimes you absolutely cannot make every event despite your best plans. Other times you don't even get one run in because of a mechanical failure. There goes any chance you had. I had to miss event #1 this year even though I was still planning to go at 9pm the night before. If it happened again I'd probably skip any single day events with a 4 hour drive and I wouldn't really blame those who did the same.

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'99 BMW M3 / "Elvic"

I don't have a problem with the current point system. Sure, a good driver can place well in one event and finish higher than a lot of people that ran every event. Is that driver going to win an award at the end of the year? No. Someone is going to have to run most if not all the events to walk away with a trophy at the end of the season.

In order to win the overall championship, you must place well CONSISTENTLY every event. That someone can get 1 point if they have a bad day, gives people that miss an event to still be competitive. Before we did the class groupings, someone in a class could win a trophy on participation alone. You can't do that now. You have to be competitive and attend most of the events to win.

I also think the no-drop rule is foolish
Car has an issue at the wrong time? Sorry! Sister getting married? Sorry! Hope you didn't want to be competitive this year
The distance events (Slemon/Digby) are doubles anyway, so you still wouldn't be able to miss those without becoming noncompetitive

I think that taking luck out of the equation as much as possible is important. Allowing for 1 event to be dropped helps with that. To have the best chance of winning you need to attend everything regardless, because individuals are no longer "guaranteed" 20/17 points for showing up in a non-competitive (but populated) class.

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Money ---> Heat and Noise

MMSC #12/ASP

One of the reasons we are not dropping a event in 2014 is due to NBSCC. We didnt want them to hold there first Regional in years and it go bust. We wanted to see lots of regulars there. And we did, plus plus plus. Outside of Nats there event had the largest feild. By a long shot. So can we drop a event in 2015? Sure. Come to the AGM and vote for it, or give you proxy to some to vote for you. I think it was that way for a long time. Ill vote for the worst event dropped.

I really like the Time Attack point system. Not because i win in it, but because it rewards people for driving on there class limit. or closer to it then others. And if we drop a event for 2015 it will tighten the top ten up big time. Yes for some people only the top 3 matter. I do NOT agree. If every year you run, and you increase you overall spot by 5 spots, thats improvement. YES you will see it at events, But its always nice to see yourself improve over the years. Ive done this for 7-8 years. No overall regional win, or overall club wins. Ive spent years losing to Trevor, or Devon. Pretty sure George beat me out years as well. I am very competitive. I want to win, but ive had a blast lossing. lol. I like seeing everyone improve, everyone pushing harder every event to go faster. Id like to see the point show the hard work of everyone who runs as well.

So I am for the Time attack points system. Maybe i am missing something. Something bad. If so, lets get it talked about.

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Watch out for porcupine exiting turn 9!!!!!!

AX-1995 Honda Civic CX FSP
RR-1995 Honda DelSol VTEC GT4
2009 Canadian Solosprint Champion.
ARMS Race Director. Race@armsinc.ca

I also like the CASC points system and will be voting for dropping the worst event in scoring.

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ASCC VP Membership
'01 DHG Mustang Bullitt #16
'22 Golf R

In years past we used to drop the worst event, until we had fewer events run, and when we dropped one, it made for more ties, etc. However, if we use the points system that CASC-OR uses, it will eliminate a tie, and if there is one, it will be VERY rare! Personally, I think we should have dropped 5 this year.....

I agree with dropping worst.
What about excluding certain events from being dropped in future, for example to help SJ, or if F'ton were to organize a regional?

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2009 Civic Hybrid. 1997 BMW 328iS
evanwritescars.com