Found the results on-line this morning for the western Canadian Spec Miata Championship, and thought I'd post them. Here's the link:

http://nascc.ab.ca/wp-content/uploads/2 ... inal-4.pdf

For some reason I've had a hard time keeping up-to-date on what has been going on out there, most of the links that came up in a google search didn't work for me. Anybody have first-hand info?

Looking through their results, it seems to me they have somewhere between 10 and 20 regular runners, and a whole bunch of 'occasional' drivers. And virtually the same sort of contingency pay-outs as we did (page 4).

I also found a seperate link that implied that they run on Hoosier tires. Which means that someone in Canada must be authorized to sell the SM7 at 'racer' prices (the real reason I'm doing all this digging around ).

Did you try googling "Hoosier Tire Canada"?

http://www.hoosiertirecanada.com/?q=node/6

_________________
Brent O'Connor
ASCC Member
MHPDC Volunteer
2007 Mustang GT
Kentville

Thanks for the pointers, both of you. But I knew about both of those sources already.

The deal is that the SM7 tire is the 'spec' tire for SM racing at SCCA events. It's sold trackside at those events at a price that is quite a bit cheaper than the corresponding R7, even though I think it's pretty much the same tire. I bought a couple of sets when I went on my big road trip last year, but I had to buy them there, the Canadian Hoosier guys that Brent linked to said they were unavailable in Canada. But if they're racing on them in Western Canada, I'm thinking maybe it's possible to buy via mail-order after all if you can find the right guy... although shipping would probably be a killer from out in Alberta.

But I'm not even sure the western guys are even racing on these - like I said, most of the links that Google pointed me to about that series didn't work for me. And I'm sort of curious about how they're doing, any special rules they're using, etc. Too much time on my hands, I guess.

Seems they were doing a group buy through a racing shop in Leduc. Try giving them a call:
http://www.wcma.ca/forum/index.php?topic=983.0

FWIW getting Hoosiers through a Hoosier dealer was one of the options being looked at last Fall. However paying more for a tire that heat cycles out wasn't an attractive option when tires such as NT01 are readily available for less (and since the SM7's aren't legal for SM here now there wasn't any point pursuing it). Maybe give a Hoosier dealer such as R & D Performancenter a call.

PS I tried contacting the west coast series a while ago through miatavsmiata.ca but never got a reply and see now that the website is down. I'm also curious to see what they have/had in place for contingency, etc.

OK, so it wasn't just me that had trouble finding info about the western series. Thanks for that.

FWIW, there is some contingency info on page 4 of the document I originally linked to.

Now things are going to go sideways a bit:

You say (in reference to the SM7) 'paying more for a tire that heat cycles out wasn't an attractive option'. But how did you come to that conclusion? And were the majority of the SM owners in the region (Caseley, Ellis, VanD (X2), Sipkema, myself and yourself) involved in coming to that conclusion?

My experience with SM7's (scant though I admit it is) has been pretty good - I ran a single set in every event I did last year, and there's still life left in them. And I think they held on to their speed better than the R888's that I've run in the past - there was enough in there to do a 1:20.2 qualifying/practice lap for the 3-hour, even though it was sort of a fun event and no one was really trying in practice. And I think they are priced pretty attractively to sponsored SM series.

And, since I still have a fresh set sitting in my basement, that leads to my next segway:

Who says that SM7's are 'illegal' in SM for this year? I thought at the race workshop that the decision was 'open DOT tires' for SM. Did I miss something? Normally I'd just read the rule book to see what the real scoop is, but I'm having trouble finding that too this year so I'll just have to take your word for it for now. But wow, it strikes me as weird to claim an 'open tire' SM series, but then ban the SCCA-spec tire for the class.

I haven't seen the 2017 rules yet, however at the race workshop at the AGM in December one of the proposed SM rule changes was:
"5.5 TIRES
Size shall be 205/50R15.
Tires must have a DOT UTQG rating of 100 or greater."

It was agreed that this rule would be adopted at the workshop. These proposed rules were emailed out to all SM drivers/owners a week prior to the AGM, handed out at the workshop, and you were in attendance at the workshop when this rule was discussed and voted on. The summary of the workshop that was emailed to all SM drivers/owners (including you) included the following item "-The proposed tire rule change (tread wear 100 or greater) for SM was passed at the race committee meeting". As mentioned earlier once that rule was agreed upon there was no point in looking at the SM7s any further for 2017 (even if the $200 USD price before duty and shipping wasn't enough to rule them out).

As far as "banning the SCCA tire" goes, the SM series here hasn't used the same tire as SCCA or NASA in a number of years now, as you are well aware. So I'm not sure why any of this is a surprise.

You are more than welcome to go find good deals on tires for the series (who doesn't like a good deal on tires?). Though would appreciate it if you did a little more research then you did in the "best tires for AMP" thread where your "glance" at tires prices and your assumptions based on past experience gave very inaccurate tires prices (as delivered).

Well Ken, I bow to your magnificence. You obviously are 'large and in charge' around here, at least as it pertains to Spec Miata. I hope it goes well for you.

End of the discussion from my point of view.

Not sure if the SM7 is a different compound then the R7, but we get between 4-6 races on the USED R7 tires we buy, most have 1-2 races already on them Stateside. So if we were buying new, we might get a extra 1-2 races. But they do not heat cycle out on us. They wear out much faster lol.
We run on average 1.8 secs faster on the hoosier then the NT-01 as well. While i really enjoy the grip and speed, the NT-01 (OR toyo R888/RA-1) is a much funner tire to race on. Problem for us is, nobody to race will when we run the NT-01.

I do remember the tire talk in the AGM, and ken is correct. It was decided that a the miata tires must be a MIN of 100 Tread-wear.

_________________
Watch out for porcupine exiting turn 9!!!!!!

AX-1995 Honda Civic CX FSP
RR-1995 Honda DelSol VTEC GT4
2009 Canadian Solosprint Champion.
ARMS Race Director. Race@armsinc.ca

I don't know if the 'SM' Hoosiers are identical to the regular series or not, but folks who know better than I have suggested they are.

Anyway, my experience on a slow, lightweight car like a Miata is that the SM7's are slower than the SM6's they replaced, but last longer. I ran my one and only lap in the 19's at AMP on a toasted set of SM6's - yay - and never came within 2 tenths of repeating that on the 7's. But the 7's seem to have really good life, better than the triple 8's that I was more familiar with. Part of that's down to the fact that they're non-directional and you can swap them around willy-nilly to even out the wear (although I did this with the triple 8's anyway - I never noticed any big difference running them backward).

I obviously didn't catch the significance of the extra words tacked onto Ken's motion at the Race meeting, but it's unlikely I would have understood the significance of them anyway even if I had of been listening. No big deal, it just means that I'm not going to be classed as a Spec Miata for a second season in a row - even though I am a legal Spec Miata in the rest of the world. Is this good for the future of the class at AMP? Ask yourself. I'm obviously being shown the door, and will leave gracefully.

And as far as all that other stuff: I (along with just about everybody else involved) ignored the barrage of e-mails Ken was sending out before and after that race meeting. I didn't realize that those were any sort of 'official' communication, I figured it was just some sort of over-the-top enthusiasm on the part of a new car owner and tried to steer clear until he figured out that this was a democracy. But how wrong I was... lol. Ignore Ken at your peril folks (at least if you want to run in SM!).

How are you personally being "shown the door" when you admit you were not listening or able to understand the potential rules for the series you want to run in, and ignoring emails related to the rules of that series?



You are making this stuff up aren't you? Having a bit of fun, taking the piss, whatever you want to call it...

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Paul

No man, I admit it... I didn't understand what was going on. One Minute I was being pressed by Ken to agree to buy all my tires from Scotia through an exclusive agreement for R888's (which I didn't want to do), next minute James is suggesting just having an 'open tire' rule instead to calm the waters, I just assumed 'open tire' meant open tire when I heard that and put my brain in neutral until just now.

Big deal, it just means that I'm not a Spec Miata this year. Good luck to those that are.

Honestly, your best bet is to hang on to those Hoosiers you have now for a weekend away, they are more suited to less abrasive tracks with longer, higher load corners.
Thus the reason folks want a 100+treadwear tire for racing at AMP, all the GT3 BMW's ran Hoosiers (except me!) for a couple seasons and now all run the nitto, its just a better tire for AMP, very similar compound to the R888, but a much better carcass, with almost unbelievable wear and speed right down to the cords.

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Paul

It was always "min 100 TW" from when James first suggested it (and you commented on it) in the SM 2.0 thread, through the emails a week before the AGM which listed the proposed tire rule (as quoted above) , during the workshop meeting, and emails after the AGM. I don't know what else could have been done to make it clearer but it wasn't "open tires" in any of these discussions.

As for a "legal SM", NASA and even some of the SCCA regions run Toyos instead of Hoosiers. As Paul suggested use your Hoosiers in the US and save the hassle of getting tires while you are down there. It never occurred to me that the tire rule would exclude anyone, especially since you have a basement full of R888s you could run here (if you don't plan on using the R888s please let me know).

BTW the "SM7 heat cycling out" came from when I was looking for info on tires before the LRP trip and came across threads like this one:
http://mazdaracers.com/topic/5839-toyos-or-hoosiers/

I'll be honest, I thought I objected the 100 tread wear rule because it didn't make sense to me to eliminate the Hoosier where it can be bought at a very good price for SM cars. I also thought once I explained why I objected that others agreed but, I guess I was wrong. To eliminate a spec tire that is used in most of NA makes zero sense to me and still does.

_________________
Brian
VP, AMP
#51 Vantage Motorsports

The problem with the Hoosier in my view is the pace advantage over everything else, if one person runs them, they force everyone to run them if you have any interest at all in a level playing field, same thing happened in GT3 2 years ago.
I think that tire is a horrible choice for a spec tire at AMP.

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Paul

Looked back through my notes and emails and this is what I have regarding getting SM7s:
- if the series registers with Hoosier Canada as an official series then Hoosier Canada will allow SM7s to be sold through a registered Hoosier dealer (such as R&D). An individual outside of an official Hoosier series cannot order SM7s even through a Hoosier dealer.

The above is similar to how it works in the states as when we tried to buy SM7s for LRP Hoosier directed us to a supplier for the region and the supplier only sold tires trackside at events. Wouldn't surprise me if that is how the western series managed to get Hoosiers through the race shop in Leduc, but you'd have to contact them to confirm that.

I called R&D this morning to confirm the above and get a price on the SM7 Hoosiers and they can't even get a price on them from Hoosier Canada. But given that they are were $200 USD last year at SCCA events, and the western SM series was paying $247 CAD in 2015, I'm not sure why anyone would refer to them as a "very good price" when NT01, R888, and other tires can be had for around $200 CAD. Plus given that the SM7s wouldn't be expected to last as long as a 100 TW tire, SM7 wouldn't be great in the rain, and given that we'd need to sign on as a Hoosier series to even have them available here, it didn't look like they were an option for 2017.

The 100 TW rule was meant as a short term solution for 2017 as it gave people choices for tires instead of trying to nail down a spec tire, and would give some time to sort out a spec tire for 2018. No one is saying the SM series would never run Hoosiers or any other tires, just that the 100 TW rule is what the series is using for 2017.

TL;DR. Also, don't care.

Ken, you do your own thing, race by yourself, whatever. I will never try to intrude on your SM world again. The rules-wrangling in this class has been a giant pain in the dong almost from the get-go for me, and who needs it. Racing is fun, this is just painful.

To the spectators following this thread: move along, nothing to see here, etc., etc.

Thanks Mitch, appreciate it.

TL;DR?? Aren't you the one asking the questions?
I don't understand where you are coming from at all. I am not even involved and it all makes perfect sense to me.
You are taking things extremely personal, getting upset at things that happen while you aren't paying attention, or can't be bothered to figure out, I don't get it, you create your own pain man.

Sorry for busting in on this SM discussion, but I am just really confused by it all.

_________________
Paul

I'm not involved in any conversations but for %#@!& sakes. Just bring your cars out and run them. Screw a bunch of rules. We have 4 or 5 miatas. Run them in gt. Then lets have some fun and have a Miata class winner just between miata drivers. Why get bogged down in this sh!t. Andy I agree with you. Go buy your hoosiers or whatever. I dont have a problem with it. Mckay can stick a v8 in his, I dont care. Just bring your cars out. I am sticking to nittos. I will race with you guys but you have to chill a bit or you will talk yourself out of racing again. Show the love people.

This is not going to be constructive.

Why would you buy into a spec class if you didn't want the rules wrangling politics that come with it. Politics and rules and infighting are the heart of every single spec class ever made. That's why they suck and I will likely never compete in one. I've witnessed all the F1 wannabes and could have been's learing over their competitors cars at impound down south. It is comical at best.

There are 2, maybe 3 of you who are going to race a miata. Just bring your car out and have fun, stop making it not fun.

Agreed, there's no point in running in a spec class unless you want rules that try to give cars of equal performance (that's the very definition of a spec class). So if we were going to have a spec miata series rules had to be defined, which is what was done last Fall leading up to and at the AGM. Attempts were made to get everyone's input into those rules to try to get something that suited this region, but there hasn't been any "wrangling" since the rules were discussed and voted on at the AGM back in December. With the rules now set for 2017 it's up to the miata owners as to whether they want to run in SM according to those rules. If someone doesn't want to bother with the SM rules (either discussing, understanding, or following them) then a GT bracket is where they should be racing.

I can understand the appeal of both spec and GT and really have no issues if someone decides to choose one over the other. I do however have issues with people that say that they want to run in a spec class but then don't want to be bothered with the rules that define the spec. To those people I'd suggest they go run in GT and enjoy themselves.

Well put Kenny. The only problem is you are not going to have a series because of it. Ironic!

Counterpoint: Maxxis supermiata sounds like an awesome class to run, but it's not all that "spec". It's not a democracy, they don't take it super seriously (share data and provide newbies with data acq) tires are extremely cheap and long lasting, and the rulebook is short and simple. Basically built to address all the sh!t parts of SCCA/NASA racing and classing.

http://shoutengine.com/SlipAnglebytrack ... rt-1-26422

_________________
'99 BMW M3 / "Elvic"

@Barney: Yeah, it will really come down to if there are enough people that want to run in a spec series.

@Scott: Thanks for that. Frankly I like the idea of a series with a looser spec (keeps costs down and easier to police) but where a SCCA/NASA spec car could still be competitive. People with the right attitude would also be great. We could look at doing something similar to that for next season (2018), assuming ARMS gives us the freedom to do that again. But it will depend on the amount of interest and a willingness to discuss rules.