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 Post subject: 2019 AGM topics.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:38 pm 
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I am sure James will start one soon enough, but we should start putting out our ideas. What we want addressed or changed.

#1, no surprise here, RACE DIRECTOR needed....

#2, Minimum Lap time for Racing. While we haven't had much of a concern with this, I feel we need to have a rough time listed as a MIN for safety reasons. I was thinking 1:45.000.
Leigh P, Paul M, Matt T and Ben E all should weight in here. You guys are the ones with the high closing rates.

#3, Rear or center dump exhaust. This would only be enforceable on new builds. Really only seems to be a issue on the 4 cylinder cars as well. The Pro-stocks that have side-exit haven't really stood out to me as excessive. Same with the corvette. Marshals and officials would have to weight in on this as they are more track-side.

#4, Tow Hooks. I would like to see the rules changed for the cars running solid tow hooks. They should not protrude past the solid bumper of the car. So they can not "Can open" the side of someone else's car, or poke through the bodywork. They can also can hook wheels/tires. While we have not had many issues, I have read a other groups who have had issues.

#5, Tow fund for away racers? In the past we have always gave a Tow fund to away drivers. Basically I think we charged them for the day, then refunded them there money. Id like to change it to $150 charge for the day, if they are towing from Quebec or the USA boarder or Farther. We may have actually used this 2 times since I started that i know of. They would have to bring there own car Not rent one from a local. While they do not do this for us, we can do it for them. Maybe someday we will pick up a group and get something going. This would not count at the JCM. Everyone pays full price at the JCM as it is a fund raiser event for AMP.

#6, Sharing a car for sprint races. A few people ask if they could share a car for sprint races. We would have to change the scoring to count only the car number. I have no issue with this as long as the car is registered for a full day. If the car is registered for a single series, only 1 driver can run (Unless there is a emergency/Hurt/Sick. Then a second driver may run.)

#7, We need officials. Pretty much every spot needs more people.

#8, Brackets for racing seem to be working very well. I know GT4 is having a blast. Maybe we could allow a 1 lap breakout per weekend?? lol joking.

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 AGM topics.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:01 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: 2019 AGM topics.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:42 am 
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My list:

- Entering a mandatory 2 stop race with no intention to pit - if you don't plan to stop, notify t/s beforehand, and you will not be considered a leader, ever, on restarts.

- Pit exit under SC - blend into the field, or wait till the line of cars goes by? I've seen it done both ways, which way will we do it?

- Do 5min under SC - so we have done a year with pits closed for 5min stop under safety car. Some pros and cons. Lets discuss, and see if leaving the pits open ALL the time for 5min stop may work better.

-Bottle bags - not compatible with cars for front and rear impact. I can explain the issue in detail, I've studied the wall failure and the car damage. What are we going to do about it? They launch cars in the air.

-Rain lights - right now NOTHING is required for rain lights, only recommended. For 2020, we should at least require 1 rear facing red light to be on in the rain, and suggest proper FIA flashing light. 2021 we should require flashing light. Eventually there will be a big crash in poor visibility, the technology is out there, lets use it. Maybe we can do a group buy.

-I would like to have a seperate APS meeting, to discuss the future, and propose a sponsorship/prize money/safety fund. I suggest GT4 do the same, and would be happy to collaborate with GT4 group on this. Please reach out to me.


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 AGM topics.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:06 pm 
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Entering a mandatory 2 stop race with no intention to pit - if you don't plan to stop, notify t/s beforehand, and you will not be considered a leader, ever, on restarts.
---See line 3 for idea.

Pit exit under SC - blend into the field, or wait till the line of cars goes by? I've seen it done both ways, which way will we do it?
---Exiting Pit lain should be after the field goes by. If the last car in line behind the safety car passes the end of pit lain and no other car crest T11, the car should be allowed out on track. We just need to add a RED light setup to the starters bridge, and setup the control to someone. Starter maybe?

Do 5min under SC - so we have done a year with pits closed for 5min stop under safety car. Some pros and cons. Lets discuss, and see if leaving the pits open ALL the time for 5min stop may work better.
---My vote is to leave the pits stuff as it sits. If we set the pits to open all the time, it completely removes strategy.
Ontario has a different way of doing stops. 1 hour races. Mandatory stop can not be made in the first or last 20MIN. 2 hour race, Mandatory Stop can not be made in the first or last 30 min. Could modify that rule for the JCM. Making late race restarts less likely to have people skipping there pit stops at the front.


Bottle bags - not compatible with cars for front and rear impact. I can explain the issue in detail, I've studied the wall failure and the car damage. What are we going to do about it? They launch cars in the air.
---Bottle bags are great for low speed impacts IMO and all the Bike guys love them. High speeds car hits not so much. I do not have a lot of Knowledge on this stuff, So ill just listen.


Rain lights - right now NOTHING is required for rain lights, only recommended. For 2020, we should at least require 1 rear facing red light to be on in the rain, and suggest proper FIA flashing light. 2021 we should require flashing light. Eventually there will be a big crash in poor visibility, the technology is out there, lets use it. Maybe we can do a group buy.
---Rain lights I really never cared either way, but never really thought about the fact some people DO NOT have Tail lights. Only brake lights. In my view, all cars must have 1 rear facing light thats on at all times for racing in the rain. Rain lights are the correct answer. So i see no reason why it shouldn't be mandatory for 2021. But for 2020, I would say it is Mandatory to have 1 rear facing light that is on at all times for Rain races, or your tail lamps must be on. No tail lamps no racing in the rain. I followed Derek around earlier this year following his brake lamps as my braking points. If he had messed up a corner, so would have I. All i could see was 2 little red dots light up telling me where he was so I knew where I was. Matt did the same behind you i believe in the same race.


-I would like to have a seperate APS meeting, to discuss the future, and propose a sponsorship/prize money/safety fund. I suggest GT4 do the same, and would be happy to collaborate with GT4 group on this. Please reach out to me.

Leigh, I am all for a little collaboration. Hopefully we could get a good chunk of GT4 drivers in on it.

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 AGM topics.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:24 pm 
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I know we've been working on improving our gridding procedures, but it's still a problem getting everyone queued up in the limited space we have to work in. Is it worth continuing this discussion at the AGM?

(My take on it would be to permanently mark out grid positions one through 15 with paint along the wall on pit lane, and do the gridding there. But there's probably a dozen reasons why we can't do that that I'm not familiar with... so I'm open to any other workable alternatives that might be put forward.)

I am well aware of (and appreciate) all of the work our volunteers do, and realize that they are in critically short supply. So this is not a criticism in any way of how they have been handling things. Just me thinking out loud to see if there's a better alternative to all of the the messing around we do now trying to squeeze everyone in order in the limited space we now use to do the process.


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 AGM topics.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:03 pm 
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Item for tech inspection/rules.
Hoods should be able to be opened easily from the outside of the car, hood pins are obvious, secondary catches seem to be hidden under bumpers, behind grilles and/or not marked. OK if the driver is outside the car when it's on fire, he/she can open the hood for the marshal with the fire extinguisher, would be unfortunate if the driver was stuck inside a burning car.

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 AGM topics.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:39 pm 
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Andy Mitchell wrote:
I know we've been working on improving our gridding procedures, but it's still a problem getting everyone queued up in the limited space we have to work in. Is it worth continuing this discussion at the AGM?

(My take on it would be to permanently mark out grid positions one through 15 with paint along the wall on pit lane, and do the gridding there. But there's probably a dozen reasons why we can't do that that I'm not familiar with... so I'm open to any other workable alternatives that might be put forward.)

I am well aware of (and appreciate) all of the work our volunteers do, and realize that they are in critically short supply. So this is not a criticism in any way of how they have been handling things. Just me thinking out loud to see if there's a better alternative to all of the the messing around we do now trying to squeeze everyone in order in the limited space we now use to do the process.


I think we need to get Large cones and have them marked with the Grid position. That should make it much easier for Pre-grid. You could look at the results posted and just know where to go. We have talked about Painting before and i am 99% sure AMP said no. Id rather get AMP to allow Painting of Paddock spots and Pit lain spots over Grid spots as well. We are space limited, so its kinda difficult. I do think the Diagonal with Cones marked for grid spots will help greatly. Also we really need 2 grid marshals. 1 really isn't enough.

Andy Hill wrote:
Item for tech inspection/rules.
Hoods should be able to be opened easily from the outside of the car, hood pins are obvious, secondary catches seem to be hidden under bumpers, behind grilles and/or not marked. OK if the driver is outside the car when it's on fire, he/she can open the hood for the marshal with the fire extinguisher, would be unfortunate if the driver was stuck inside a burning car.


Yeah That's a good point. Something we need to review and also look into what other groups do.

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2009 Canadian Solosprint Champion.
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 Post subject: Re: 2019 AGM topics.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:20 pm 
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#6 - I agree. If a car is registered for both debert and pennfield, give the points to the car. Let the drivers mix up series if they entered the whole day.

Pit exit under SC: IMO, just wait for the field to be clear, why chance an accident under SC for amateur racing? A light would be helpful, someone offered to make one. Are there any cars that *can't* see down the front straight at pit exit and don't have a radio?

Opening up pits all the time - Can we not change the 5min stop rules for like the 3rd time in the past 3 years? I thought this year worked fine. In cases like the JCM I also don't think AMP has enough pit stall room if 20+ cars decide to roll in when they see a SC. What are the pros/cons?

Rain lights - Agreed, no brainer here.

Gridding - I hate to say it, but we don't have enough room for the way we've been doing it. With 20+ cars for some races the back of the grid is well in the gravel and it's a pain in the ass to get lined up that way. I never had an issue until I started a few races from the back this year and found it just as frustrating, if not more than the old way of doing it.


Other things:

Aero rules. Now that ASCC solo is finally over, I can update them with suggestions - I believe the race committee wants them to come into effect for 2020. The only planned change I had outside some simplification of wording was to just set wing width at car width + 4" up to a max of 72", or something along those lines. Or we have to grandfather current wings - I do not think ARMS should be dictating that people need to go out and buy new wings.

Fueling. We went back to the old rule, are we going to stay that way?

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 AGM topics.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:56 pm 
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Joel N wrote:
You could look at the results posted and just know where to go.

Yeah, that's the key thing to make the gridding business easier.

But it won't work unless you know where your spot is beforehand (and can get to it without causing an accident). Which is why I suggested doing the pre-grid over on pit lane instead of in the middle of the paddock, and using something simple like painted on numbers along the wall to mark the spots out.

Would AMP really object to a set of 2 inch grid place numbers stenciled along the pit wall? Putting them up high would let you see them easily from within your car, and wouldn't harm any pavement. Doesn't seem like it would be a big deal to me, but hey, I'm always learning new things. :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 AGM topics.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:31 pm 
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Steve Phillips wrote:
I once clocked Paul Machan at a 1:42...on his bicycle.

Lol. GT9? We need the entry fees... :D


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 AGM topics.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:15 am 
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Andy Mitchell wrote:
Joel N wrote:
You could look at the results posted and just know where to go.

Yeah, that's the key thing to make the gridding business easier.

But it won't work unless you know where your spot is beforehand (and can get to it without causing an accident). Which is why I suggested doing the pre-grid over on pit lane instead of in the middle of the paddock, and using something simple like painted on numbers along the wall to mark the spots out.

Would AMP really object to a set of 2 inch grid place numbers stenciled along the pit wall? Putting them up high would let you see them easily from within your car, and wouldn't harm any pavement. Doesn't seem like it would be a big deal to me, but hey, I'm always learning new things. :roll:


As long as we only have the 1 series running this will work great. Personally I would just put Cones on top of pit wall. (Paddock side) Easy to see and if we change our setup we wont have a bunch of numbers painted on the wall. Plus you can see the cones above cars. If its on the wall it might be harder to see. The person doing Grid can stand at the entrance to pit lain and tell each car passing by there grid spot. Then they arent trying to wave to one of 5 cars parked down at the bottom of the paddock. Then we can just role out from Pit lain.

If we manage to get ourselfs 2 Pre-grid Marshals, the second can stand down by Spot #1 and as we head out, Point Left or right to indicate what side we will be pairing up on. This is how they did it at Mosport and it worked great for the drivers mid-pack or farther back. no guessing where we need to be. Biggest issue is how late some people are at pairing up. they lag back all the way to T11 causing everyone behind them to be moved back or out of place.

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 AGM topics.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:51 pm 
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Cool. Cones, numbers, whatever - doesn't matter much to me.

And agreed that gridding in pit lane could only work when we're running a single series.

BTW, I don't think the pointing at the end of pit lane is all that super-important. With this set-up, so long as everyone just goes to the opposite side of the track from the car ahead of them when we tighten up in 9 everything works out. Fail to fill your spot on the grid before we head out and it's gone.


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 AGM topics.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 6:31 pm 
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Sponsorship:

I still need to put pen to paper, but idea would be to sell the name to each series (A & b), ditch the Debert and Penn names, and sell name of the 1 hr. Something like $1500 per series for the season...... Every car runs a sticker for each - maybe the 1hr gets window banners....maybe have 3 associate sponsor per series...like $750, smaller sticker..... What to do with $$? Some for stickers, get T-Shirts made up for prizes and for sale thru the season, a portion goes to a Sedan track improvement fund (maybe name that the Tim McNeil Track improvement fund), the rest goes for points fund prizes/$$$$. Can sell unlimited points title as well.

Dollars just an example, can be adjusted, but idea is to not start to high, get it going, get sponsors involved, and return on promises...build on it next season.

Should get a Podium back drop with sponsors made as well.

Forget about web sites and trac guides - they get out dated too fast. Get the stickers on the cars, t-shirts and podium backdrop - social media will get the sponsors names out there thru pictures.

I volunteer to work on this, but can't do it alone. Will need help.


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 AGM topics.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:02 pm 
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Hey Leigh, We have some interest in it as well from a JCM Sponsor. We need to get together and get a plan on Paper to show sponsors. I think we could get a sponsor for all 4 series. Debert, Pennfeild, 1 hour and Unlimited. I also see no reason why we shouldn't change the name of the series to the sponsors name.

First year with sponsors we should focus on getting the Podium going with trophy's. The ones that were handed out in Ontario were nice, but i cant imagine they were much money. Plastic. Get the sponsors stickers done up. Each car must run 1 on each fender or windshield banner. Pretty sure that stuff is already in the rules anyway. Prizes are good, but i don't think Prize money is something we should do. As soon as money get into it, the bumpers will come out. Id be mush happier seeing it go towards entrance fees for everyone or a discount system. Race in May and you get XX off in June. That might be just me though.

We also need to move Race out of ARMS. Create another group that runs race. We can still run off the ARMS bank from what i am told. I think we talked about just calling it TRAC. It would not be a club though.

I was also asked to mention refueling. I dont really want to but here we go.... Driver in Refueling.
-- My proposed rule would be Pro-stocks only. Driver may stay in the car, Window net down, Engine off/kill switch off. No driver changes can be done or work done on the car while fueling. Fueler must be in full race gear and fire extinguisher person must be in full race gear. All stops that include fuel must be 5 Minutes. This will keep it fair for any car needing fuel. Someone can get out and fuel there own car in 5 min. If we are going to have Overall awards, there can not be a advantage for a splash and go.
Also if the driver gets out, the fire extinguisher person does not need to be in full gear. Reason behind that, #1 costs. Not everyone will be willing to spend another $500 plus to gear up another person on there team, #2 Not everyone has that many people on there team, and #3, If there is a Driver in the car, The person with the Extinguisher MUST be putting the fire out, NO matter the size of the fire.

Also we should talk about how many races we do in 2020. I am still voting for 4 race weekends and the JCM. We might have made $1000 this year after Trophys.

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2009 Canadian Solosprint Champion.
ARMS Race Director. Race@armsinc.ca


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 AGM topics.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:08 pm 
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Hi Joel,

Yeah, I agree on the prize money - I was thinking the same as your earlier in the year - prizes or rebates to those that show up the most. And a little something on race day is good, T-shirts, hats, trophies all good. My thought on prize $$$ - like maybe $100 to win the unlimited end of season - as every A and B race counts - don't think people will fight to hard, as its a lot of races....not like a 5 lap dash for cash...

At Mosport, they only give trophies for the last race (3 races per class, only race 3 has a podium). I know I went into the event with a tire strategy to be fastest in the final race -as first time I went (2016), I had no idea, did great on new tires in the 1st race, got killed in the last race when everyone else stickered up! Lesson learned. Point being, if we give bubble gum as prizes, there will be a portion of us that try harder for the GUM! Thats human nature, but I think there needs to be a little something to fight for.

Fueling - I'm actually all good with the current rules - mainly just to keep it simple. What you suggest would work, I'd do it, but then someone sees us doing it, wonders why they cant do it - 2x rules, 2x the confusion. I'd say leave it as is. Keep it simple.....Like the pit stop rule this year - I think it worked out well - much less confusion for the officials...and there is still luck and strategy involved - 2 key elements to an endurance race!!!!


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