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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 7:49 pm 
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Using the forum, vs Facebook, as it just goes to hell on Facebook.

These are just my ideas, feel free to discuss, and please add your own topics for discussion.

-Annual insurance
bikes buy annual insurance that covers 365 days a year. It also covers cars - begs the question, can we go splits? Or can AMP buy insurance and resell to members? Can we at least get a quote for an annual policy - would allow us a ton of freedom for events of all kinds. And will bring more rental business to amp.


-awards/podium
podium needs to be something to shoot for - just showing up and getting on the podium even when you don’t finish takes away from it being special. We don’t need participation awards…

2 suggestions (please add more if you have ideas!!)

1. Trophies get handed out on the day the race happens - either make them generic, without names, or give the plaques out later - can just have them for pickup at the next events drivers meeting.

2. Podium - for each series that day (there are 3), there is a gt 4,5,6 podium and a gt1.2.3 podium. Only winners from each class on the podium (so 1st in gt6, 1st in gt5 and 1st in gt4 make up a podium). Would be 6 podiums per day. Right now can have 6 podiums per race….

Not sure what to do with single car classes….

Hopefully everyone liked the hard luck awards this year at each event, maybe next year we can add hard charger. Driver that gains most positions in a race, over all the races that day.

-arms pro stock - there is issue with which cars are legal and no way to enforce.
End it? Just allow any car with stock car body? Enforcement is not reasonable. Most, if not all cars are illegal.

-Legends? Mini stocks? Should we pursue the series running with us?


Last edited by Leigh Pettipas on Thu Oct 20, 2022 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 8:41 pm 
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Hey, my login still works!

Very quickly, agree that the current awards structure is approaching 'participation trophies' in some cases. But there is actual competition in others... so I don't have a simple answer to make it all better.

The annual insurance thing is a no brainer, if what I've been told about how it works for the bike folks is true. But I've only heard second (or maybe even 3rd) hand.

I liked the hard luck awards this year, and would be similarly supportive of doing more stuff like that. Maybe not at every race, but there are always folks that I think deserve a little pat on the back at year end that don't currently get recognized.

And if we're just talking about things to discuss at the workshop, I think we should thank Brent for his help running things this year. That's not to say I don't appreciate everyone else as well (I do!), but he was new and very organized and cheerful. A positive addition to the crew!


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 8:42 pm 
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Wholeheartedly agree with all of Leigh's suggestions.

-- edit--
Also, in addition to Leigh's suggestions, to include a podium in classes that have more than 4 participants. this is in the spirit of those in GT4 or, say, GT6 where there may be a lot of cars in those classes on the grid, but they don't have much chance for an overall race grid finish.
-- end edit --

Another motion to put forward: Drivers meetings to require the driver OR a team representative.
Context: When I ran the Radical championship, the rule was that at the drivers meetings each team was required to have the driver or a representative (could be the crew chief, could be the driver, could be the sponsor, owner, etc). They were responsible to convey the main points from the drivers meeting to the rest of the team. This worked well for the racers and the officials. It would be nice to allow for this in the TRAC series as well.

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Last edited by Nickoli Roussakov on Thu Oct 20, 2022 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 9:24 pm 
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Podiums need to happen for the races held on the same day, to me the delayed podiums are almost valueless, the driver may not even be there. Personally, I'd rather a paper plate and a podium the day of a good result for team/driver, over waiting for actual trophies.
This is just my opinion.

Not sure how I feel about combining podiums, some classes have lots of cars and hard fought races and IMO deserve a full podium. Maybe eliminate podiums for classes with less than -X- number of cars, as Nickoli suggested.

Pro stock, I'd say end it, back to GT1, I have no issue with non-legal cars in pro stock, it doesn't really matter, but I don't think everyone feels this way, so GT1 is a better alternative.

Getting live timing back was very nice this season.

I gotta say, having Brent run the schedule this year, was totally game changing, NEVER at AMP have we been able to actually plan around race start times, and it was so nice.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 9:37 pm 
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Do we award overall race winner?

Maybe just in the enduro? Also park enduro winning car in front of podium?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 10:42 pm 
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Hey everyone, I sent a reply all email again, but I'm thinking that I must have messed it up, as like last time, I don't think anyone got it. Maybe it has to do with me "piggybacking" James' email. I thought it went to everyone, but probably not.

Anyway, here are my suggestions that I'd said there.


1 Points standings, a day or two after each race day would be great, for multiple reasons. I *believe* this has been sorted for 2023, but I'd like to ensure it.

2. The breakout time changes last year, I don't know what the answer is, or if it's not an issue, but the changes moved GT1 back to a 1:12.499 and faster from a 1:09.999. Which now gives us a 5 second gap there. Maybe that's fine, and if so, perfect. My thought, was if we discussed it here now, it could be a quick vote at the AGM, then carry on......or if decided it's good here, carry on and not bring it up there. Lol.

3 Safety car.....when putting the safety car out, I know it's not possible to always catch the leader, but can we, when safe to do so, no track blockage or injury, allow the pass by to happen earlier, and racers using caution near the incident, then catch up to the field during the caution? I know it *could* work, it would save time for racing, and less SC laps, etc. Or another possibility, is to send the SC out when there's a gap, and it pulls over between 2 and 3, in a safe spot, lights on, and wave the cars by there to catch the leader, then go.....thoughts?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 10:43 pm 
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Leigh Pettipas wrote:

Maybe just in the enduro? Also park enduro winning car in front of podium?


I like this!


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 10:56 pm 
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I don't care about per-race trophies. Just more clutter to throw in a bin. I like the Gridlife way - win a race, get a special sticker. You can put those on your car, helmet, toolbox, whatever. Would be easy enough to do 1-2-3 stickers, and as a bonus they'd save a bunch of money.

Brian Partridge wrote:
2. The breakout time changes last year, I don't know what the answer is, or if it's not an issue, but the changes moved GT1 back to a 1:12.499 and faster from a 1:09.999. Which now gives us a 5 second gap there. Maybe that's fine, and if so, perfect. My thought, was if we discussed it here now, it could be a quick vote at the AGM, then carry on......or if decided it's good here, carry on and not bring it up there. Lol.


I'm pretty sure it was a rulebook mistake that left GT1 at 1:09.999 instead of 1:12.499? Pulled this straight from the arms website. I thought that was part of the vote to align to consistent 2 second breakout gaps, but I don't have the notes.

GT1 1m, 09.999 or faster
(all high hp tube frame cars or production-based cars with power to weight below 6lbs per hp)
- GT2 1m, 1.12.5 and slower 10.000 and slower
- GT3 1m, 1.14.5 and slower13.500 and slower
- GT4 1m, 16.500 and slower
- GT5 1m, 18.500 and slower
- GT6 1m, 20.500 and slower

Brian Partridge wrote:
1 Points standings, a day or two after each race day would be great, for multiple reasons. I *believe* this has been sorted for 2023, but I'd like to ensure it.


I need to look at it more in depth, but I did check and I can download .csv files from speedhive. I am 90% sure I can automate points and championship standings with some programming, I already have ASCC slalom results completely automated. Just need to find the time to do it.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 11:45 am 
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So if we sh!t can pro stock, the gt1 bracket becomes important. If gt1 is say 10.5 or 10.0 and faster, then the pro stocks would end up as gt2, and that could work nicely. Not sure how that fits in with the rest. But just saying all pro stocks are gt1 and unlimited - then guys like me will do stupid things..lol.

And yes, I’ve done a high 7 in pro stock legal trim….

but on take off tires, running in the 10’s and 11’s is reasonable, that’s our normal pace.

Ive never bracket raced before. So input is welcomed!


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 12:35 pm 
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Podiums---- Id like to keep doing podium for each classes second race. Right now we do a podium for the second Sensory race, the second KMM race and the PLSR 1 hour.
Race committee suggest going back to the dash plaques and suppling something for them to be put on. So no more trophies on the weekend after but Pauls right, That just took away from it, and that truly created confusion to a degree.

Race winner stickers- Scott mentioned it to me earlier this year. I think its a great idea. Run them up your A-pillar or Rolecage. Kinda a badge of Honor.

Race weekend points. (This was my job and I sucked at it) Looks like for 2023 we will have points up after each race weekend. No idea on time but guessing it would be the week after at some point.

Drivers meeting-- Nic I go 50/50 on this. I cant compare us to the Radical cup. In my view that was Pro-am racing? We are Club level racing. Drivers in my mind should be at the meeting. On the flip side of that, when we went to Mosport I don't remember a rollcall. Doing a rollcall with 100+ drivers is just unrealistic.

Insurance is a ARMS deal. While we can ask about it, Its down to ARMS to review. Makes no sense to pay more. So if its there, we should be using it.

Day of Prizes. If we get people offering stuff we will keep handing them out. I am sure people like getting discounts or free stuff just as much as I do. So we will keep working on that.

Pro-stocks- This should be a discussion between the Current and future Pro-stock/GT1 teams. Hopefully it can be mostly sorted before the meeting.



Sponsorship packages and stickers--- While we haven't been giving back to the drivers much, How is everyone doing with the sponsor stuff?
I personally enjoy it and want to see it continue.
There will be a sponsorship review at the AGM this year. How we are doing, Goals for 2023 and so on.
Goal will still be to build a pot that allows race run itself. Covering issues like Bad weekends, issues with TRAC gear, Track issues and so on.
We hope to be able to do more over time and will continue to work towards growing TRAC series racing.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 12:43 pm 
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Scott Montgomerie wrote:
I need to look at it more in depth, but I did check and I can download .csv files from speedhive. I am 90% sure I can automate points and championship standings with some programming, I already have ASCC slalom results completely automated. Just need to find the time to do it.


There is a way to just do the championship standings right on speedhive. It's how we do it at SARL events, finish the race and it gets uploaded immediately. Dunno how to set it up because I'm not in Timing and scoring there, but it works fine.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 12:49 pm 
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Leigh Pettipas wrote:
So if we sh!t can pro stock, the gt1 bracket becomes important. If gt1 is say 10.5 or 10.0 and faster, then the pro stocks would end up as gt2, and that could work nicely. Not sure how that fits in with the rest. But just saying all pro stocks are gt1 and unlimited - then guys like me will do stupid things..lol.

And yes, I’ve done a high 7 in pro stock legal trim….

but on take off tires, running in the 10’s and 11’s is reasonable, that’s our normal pace.

Ive never bracket raced before. So input is welcomed!


The issue with the brackets now is there's a hole. GT2 is 12.500 and slower, GT1 is 9.999 and faster. Right now as defined by the rulebook there is no class for cars between 10.000 and 12.499.

How about just this:

- UNL 1m, 10.499 and faster
- GT1 1m, 10.500 and slower
- GT2 1m, 12.500 and slower
- GT3 1m, 14.500 and slower
- GT4 1m, 16.500 and slower
- GT5 1m, 18.500 and slower
- GT6 1m, 20.500 and slower

Basically after fixing the uneven bracket gaps from the rulebook it requires either adding a class, or having GT1 be everything 12.499 and faster.

Nate Perron wrote:
There is a way to just do the championship standings right on speedhive. It's how we do it at SARL events, finish the race and it gets uploaded immediately. Dunno how to set it up because I'm not in Timing and scoring there, but it works fine.


I'm game to take a look if ARMS is willing to give me all the login details.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 2:23 pm 
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I love the sticker idea! Second choice for me would be just going back to pie plates.

And no offense, but the dash plaques seem like a lot of bother for something that I may or may not ever look at again. And can probably only stick to flat surfaces... flexi stickers are probably both cheaper and more versatile.

On the points biz, I offered to do it a while back (and already have a spreadsheet set up, so all you have to do is stick placings in). But if there's competition for the job I will certainly step aside.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 8:07 pm 
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Joel N wrote:

Drivers meeting-- Nic I go 50/50 on this. I cant compare us to the Radical cup. In my view that was Pro-am racing? We are Club level racing. Drivers in my mind should be at the meeting. On the flip side of that, when we went to Mosport I don't remember a rollcall. Doing a rollcall with 100+ drivers is just unrealistic. .



For information purposes only, but at the last regional round, at Mosport in September that we all went to, they also requested driver or a representative. And yes, no roll call. Rollcall is a local(ARMS) thing I'm pretty sure.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 8:36 pm 
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Let’s not add another class! Got to be a way to do brackets…do we have any gt6 cars?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 9:18 pm 
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another quick topic for discussion.

I noticed some cars speeding in pit lane, passing our pit box, at the JCM. I think we were the last box, can't remember if anyone was pitted closer to pit out than us.

Maybe we just need to emphasis the location of the end of pit road. (is it spelled out somewhere?)

Personally, i maintain pit road speed until past the bridge. A LOT of people do not.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 8:14 am 
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Leigh Pettipas wrote:
another quick topic for discussion.

I noticed some cars speeding in pit lane, passing our pit box, at the JCM. I think we were the last box, can't remember if anyone was pitted closer to pit out than us.

Maybe we just need to emphasis the location of the end of pit road. (is it spelled out somewhere?)

Personally, i maintain pit road speed until past the bridge. A LOT of people do not.


Would not defend that, but I think (at some point in the dim, distant past) that we were all told speeding on the way out after a stop was OK. Seemed weird at the time, and was probably just something that unintentionally came out the wrong way when it was said... but I do think I remember something like that.

Certainly could be clarified at the meeting.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 9:40 am 
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This is easy to do, its built into the Orbits software. Once the standings are recalculated after each race they can be uploaded to Speedhive the same way the race results are.

Scott Montgomerie wrote:
Nate Perron wrote:
There is a way to just do the championship standings right on speedhive. It's how we do it at SARL events, finish the race and it gets uploaded immediately. Dunno how to set it up because I'm not in Timing and scoring there, but it works fine.


I'm game to take a look if ARMS is willing to give me all the login details.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 10:04 am 
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My own topic to discuss: is there any easy way to ensure a minimum number of laps 'at speed' in a sprint race?

My heart just sinks when a safety car comes out in a sprint race, especially if it happens early on. I don't wish the safety workers any harm at all, but trundling around at 50 km/hr ain't racing - and it's pretty disappointing, considering all the effort and expense to bring a race car to the track in the first place. Note, I'm not talking about races where you do two or three safety car laps and then go back to racing. I'm talking about cases where you maybe only get two or three laps at speed out of the whole deal. I think we had a sprint race like that last year (or maybe the year before, I can't remember). It sucked.

Extending races I know causes all kinds of problems too. So I don't know the answer... but, if time allows, maybe there's something that can be done.

One suggestion: At a minimum, don't score any race that doesn't meet the minimum criteria of at least 1/2 the laps at speed. And maybe give folks who didn't get their money's worth the opportunity to grid up in another race on the same day for free if possible? I know that's not going to work for every situation, but it's the best I can come up with.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 10:05 am 
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Also, is there any way we can re-instate some sort of practice before qualifying starts? I'd personally find that useful...

And jeez, I probably won't even attend the race workshop but I'm chock full of ideas to discuss. Sorry. :-)


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 10:43 am 
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practice before quali - that's one reason to evaluate ALL year insurance, it would give us mush more flexibility.

Bike's pay 18k for annual insurance, that covers them 365 days a year. That is what they tell me.

What did ARMS spend in 2022 for car event insurance at AMP? (not just racing).

To me, if the two amounts are in the same ballpark, ALL year insurance would make a lot of sense, and encourage much more growth in our sport at all levels.

If the difference in cost is a lot, then it may be a no go....but no harm in looking into it.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 3:57 pm 
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September's race could have easily worked for race car practice insurance wise, but word from above was no.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:25 am 
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Leigh Pettipas wrote:
Let’s not add another class! Got to be a way to do brackets…do we have any gt6 cars?


At least 2 that competed in 2022.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2022 8:38 pm 
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Regarding ARMS pro stocks and brackets:

I have a proposal for next season, 2023. And it’s returning to bracket racing. Make the gt2 breakout time 1:11.00. Anything faster is gt1. Pro stocks try to run as gt2. There is currently only one or two other gt2 car, the Nic’s crx and Ben’s miata, and they are pretty much able to run a 1:11 ish, so I can’t see much push back to adjusting the current bracket?

This will hopefully (for the pro stocks):
1. Promote actual racing, not just everyone driving around with big differences in lap times
2. Get rid of comments about who is legal or not legal
3. A more reasonable target for current competitors and those looking to get involved.

If you want to go faster, run gt1

It seems to work well in other regions (gt2 in CASC for example, good sized fields).

Personally, I’ve never not run flat out, I’ve never bracket raced, so I don’t know what to expect. We can keep the lap time target fluid, adjust if needed, maybe evaluate it after 2 events?

As for ARMS Pro Stock class, just leave it as is, but dormant . Can always come back to it in 2024 if we want to. If we kill it now, harder to resurrect.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 12:16 pm 
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For the insurance, If we had more days it would make sense but we only spent around $13,000 or less for insurance.
If ARMS was holding all events, It would be beneficial. If time attack started running every Saturday before races, we would balance out I think as a second day is a little less then $700.

Mitch, I agree on it sucking about losing time on track but not much we can do. If we put you in another race, your second driver or a car with double drivers are put out. Then you get extra track time and they don't. Extending the race would be nice but pretty sure the timing gear is set.
You could create a rule about a race must runs 1/2 of its given time or laps for it to count as a points race.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2022 10:11 pm 
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Joel, is that the total for ALL ARMS CAR events - all races, race schools, HPDS's, solos and rally cross?

I've been told rally cross uses a different insurer - would seem to make sense if we can get together on this - if it would mean we could have a year round policy.

1st step is to get a quote....without a quote, there is not much to discuss.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2022 2:50 pm 
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I really liked the removal of triangle ceremony at the awards for the day.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2022 5:53 pm 
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Leigh Pettipas wrote:
Joel, is that the total for ALL ARMS CAR events - all races, race schools, HPDS's, solos and rally cross?

I've been told rally cross uses a different insurer - would seem to make sense if we can get together on this - if it would mean we could have a year round policy.

1st step is to get a quote....without a quote, there is not much to discuss.


Currently I am under the understanding that ARMS can not insure their clubs event. Very well could be wrong But that's my understanding. If that is a option then maybe it will balance out. You would be insuring events at other locations with slalom.
And yes Rally/cross/sprints and performance events are involved with CARS.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2022 1:48 pm 
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Hi All

Not worry I have been reading. lol

Could anyone who has a proposed breakout plan please email it to RACE@ARmsinc.ca.

We are coming up with an agenda for the race workshop. I will try and and email it tomorrow night.

I see the highlights are 1 insurance
2 giving out awards
3 sorting out brackets some more
4 practice time
5 posting the points

Sound about right ? hope so


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2022 9:15 pm 
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Location: Hantsport, N.S.
Thanks James, I think you captured just about everything that I thought important in this thread.

Can I ask if I'm understanding the insurance business properly though? I'm not anywhere near well enough informed to know whether the 'bike' model would work for us or not... but I do know that the fussing around that went on this year (having to arrange insurance for work parties, cancelling Saturday race car practices, ending race days on the button because of expiry, etc.) was non-optimum.

I was told the SARL policy works similarly to what Leigh says:

Leigh Pettipas wrote:
-Annual insurance
bikes buy annual insurance that covers 365 days a year. It also covers cars - begs the question, can we go splits? Or can AMP buy insurance and resell to members? Can we at least get a quote for an annual policy - would allow us a ton of freedom for events of all kinds. And will bring more rental business to amp.

(except maybe the superbikes event was handled as a separate thing somehow? But I dunno for sure about that..)

The big deal there is that apparently SARL can either decide to put on or cancel an event mid-season with just a phone call or e-mail, no additional fussing around required. Am I correct in thinking that flexibility like that would be a benefit to ARMS in organizing not only racing, but also lapping and time attack? If so, that's gotta be worth something to the ARMS boffins who have to fill in forms and write contracts for all those separate events now. To say nothing about revenue that might be realized by putting on ARMS-sanctioned race car test days and maybe driving schools under the same insurance.

I take Joel's point that right now this doesn't look viable for the race series itself on it's own, but it would be still be great if we could swing it somehow as a group effort between the various disciplines/clubs.

My main interest in this is because we could perhaps have race practices again if it worked out.


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